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My guidelines for resterations vs modifications
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royfisk
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 10:07 am    Post subject: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I figure I can get some feathers ruffled with this but here I go.
The decision to restore or to build a hotrod of sort is not all that difficult.
As many of you know I have been into these motorcycles for a long time, not to mention a member of this site since before it had 1000 members. I have bought and sold over 40 yamaha xs 650 motorcycles in that time period alone. I have owned xs-1's, 2's, b's, standards, and yes to many specials to remember themm all.
The main piece to find for a resteration is the exhaust. 80% of the bikes I have owned had aftermarket exhaust systems when I bought them. 19% had rough stock exhaust systems that were totally unuseable for a resteration. Last week I picked up a pair of B bikes that some of you will remember my bragging about, Though both bikes might have been what some would say are restorable. Only one bike can be made from the 2 and have it a complete stock bike. You see between both bikes there is only one good set of mufflers, and even at that the left one has a small dent from a passenger or something. The other mufflers have holes on the back side. BOTH HAVE MINOR RUST pitting. Now where would I go to find a STOCK exhaust for a 1975 b??? That is worth putting on a resteration bike? They just dont exsist, and if they did what would it cost. The good ones are on good bikes. The japaneese didnt do a real good job in the 60's and 70's with there chrome plating and the exhausts were one of the first things to go away. not to mention the frame of mind the american riding public was in in that time frame, Loud pipes made cool bikes.
The last muffler from yamaha in 1999 for the left side listed for 343.46 right side was the same , thats just for mufflers, now add the rest of the hardware and headpipes what you got? Now add 10 years and out of stock inflation what is a mint stock exhaust worth?
Now take in the rest of the body work. What does it need to be stock?
Now the final simple question is that bike worth restoreing?
I agree with people who want to restore bikes 100%
As long as the bike has resteration maret to begin with. I fully beleive the exhaust sytem is the major key point for determining this too.
Once you put on a aftermarket part (YOUR BIKE IS NO LONGER STOCK). And the value goes with it. Also paint is a key issue. Going down to sherwin williams and buying a pint of dupont 99a paint and applying it along with the new decals, (IS NOT STOCK). Yes it is black and has correct stripes etc, but it is not star black and it is not original.
I am not going to try to RESTORE my B bikes. I plan to pull both apart and rebuild one bike as stock as I can which will be 99%. Not even repaint it just maintain it. Another thing you resteration people overlook is unrestored bikes. There are fewer , and fewer bikes left that are not restored or altered in some way. generally painted etc. The harley guys are learning this lesson. You see in the late 70's the trend changed from choppers/ bobbers or whatever you want to call them, to resterations. While it left very few un molested harleys. Today what there are of them out there are worth a goldmine. Same will happen with our beloved xs bikes. Now on another hand I have to admit I beleive all specials should be chopped up and made into whatever, and all standards and pre standards should be looked at closely and very carefully before a decision is made. But regardless of what you chop up please make the stock parts available to someone who's heart is set to restore.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 11:30 am    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

- roy - i know where there is a new unused set of stock exhausts, but for 1300 euro im not interested at the moment...i can get more than a good bike for that...i also know where there is a 78 std still in its crate, maybe i will give myself an xmas pressie next year...in many ways i agree with you although there are aspects of original bikes that quite simply need fixing...good originals will end up as collectables and not being ridden-i still get s*** for hairyarsing around on my vinnie...that is the shame, bikes should be ridden not mothballed...i learnt to ride on an es2 norton, i still have it 40 years later and hope that my 3 yo will do the same
- der muede, here in germany, sells quite a lot of oem and good used xs parts on ebay, however there must be a lot of struggling dealerships out there that are still carrying these old parts somewhere in the back of their storeroom
- my advice to those that are hacking their bikes is to keep the bits, they will come in handy...i kept everything through the 70's and 80's from my bsas, nortons, triumphs etc and am so glad of it
- sorry roy, no parts from me

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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I had to get my paint from the European PPG subsidiary. Even with the AutoColor code it could not be matched in the US. But the bike is the real cobalt blue, the side covers are only painted on the faces and the correct Yamaha overspray on the backside is still present. I have upgraded the regulator to solid state and have all the stuff to go to 100% stock. I've spent more money in an effort to keep the bike stock. The OEM seat cover, NOS headlight chrome brackets, etc. are not cheap but if available they are the way to go.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

See what I mean, Not every bike is worth restoreing, but some are and the owners need to take time and really evaluate there bike to determin if it is or is not. I am kind of lucky in a sense, I have parted so many bikes that the mechanical end of the machine is pretty much maintenance items for me. I have every engine parts that I could ever need on a 447 engine in at least triplecate other then gaskets and things such a cam chains and guides, I have it in stock. But most people dont have this luxary. I also have a pretty good selection of paintable bodywork. But what I do not have but one of is exhaust systems, and the one I have is not perfect. I personally have no problam with chopping up a bike, or hot rodding it, nor keeping it stock. As for choppers and bobbers going out of style and becomeing worthless, may slow down awhile but will not go away. I was told that by my dad when I was 14 or 15 years old that they wouldnt be worth anything, guess what history repeats itself cause it made full circle and will again. My prediction is next round of homemade motorcycles will be worth more then all previously done motorcycles. Why because there going to toughen up on motorvehical laws and put a end to modified vehicals sooner then most think. beauty part is that it will be retro active and from the year of law forward will be effected, but previous bikes will be exempt. The big thing I am trying to get accross to members is keep the bikes alive in any style YOU choose. Dont let the old stock parts go to the recycle center, get them out to those who want them. But dont be afraid to chop up a bike either. I must admit I hate seeing a nice all original bike get hacked up, when there are so many rough bikes that could be used.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I think the BUB exhaust would be an acceptable alternative to NOS. It was THE hot exhaust in it's day and it is period correct. Sometimes there is not an alternative, unless you have very deep pockets so you go the path of least damage.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I agree kingwj, but again resteration is what I am talking about. Restored means just that as it came from the factory. Any mods are just that, modifications. Now one must decide does he want a modified bike or a restored bike. If modified what differance does it make how far he goes with it, Its still modified and not stock.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

seems to be some good input for us new xs guys, Im new to these bikes and already love them! My first post was with my 75 i cut up with only 3k miles on it. (before i knew much) Now i came across a high mile 29k 76 with a mint front fender, kinda clean exhaust (gotta do some cleaning to see what i have) Once i find the noise in the motor i might use this as a resto to make up for my 75 that went to the choppin block, however with reading you guideline i feel better about cutting up the 75 because the exhaust was kinda rusty when the PO got battery acid on it- Eric
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Good input, Roy.

This brings up the Ride-or-Display aspect of restorations.

If a bike MUST be 100% Factory Original in order to qualify as a proper restoration, such a bike simply ends up a "Trailer Queen", because notchy steering bearings and sloppy plastic swingarm bushings make for scary outings. Plus, you can't risk getting rust on/in those rare mufflers.

These bikes become "art", and are no better than the chop/bob/brats -- where Form takes precedence over Function.

I'd venture to guess most of the members on these sites bought/own bikes with the intent of riding them.
If someone adds tapered steering bearings and bronze swingarm bushings to their "restoration" to keep the bike functional, they probably don't care that...
royfisk wrote:
...Once you put on a aftermarket part (YOUR BIKE IS NO LONGER STOCK)...

As the XS650 ages, they will someday become profit-centric commodities -- museum pieces where purists frown on dirty chainguards and worn control-switch lettering, and the only measure of value is what the highest bid was.

But at this point, most owners would rather have rolling Thunder than static Lightning.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 2:08 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

your 100% correct dan. Which is my point exactly but on the other hand the trailer queens are going to show future generations what the machine originally was. If I had to guess I would say that 90% of the bikes out there are not worth resteration. and out of the 90% probably 50% of those are not worth maintaining as well maintained basically stock bikes.
example Out of all the bikes I have owned maybe 3 were mostly stock bikes and show a fairly good resemblance of the day they came out of the showroom, little changes such as exhaust, seat, maybe bars etc. what some would say stock bikes. What about those bikes that come along that a thoroughly trashed? no tank, exhaust, seat, etc. should they be resurected as a resterations? Hell no, there prime for a bobber or cafe bike, but yet are kept alive by being transformed to ones imagination and indiviualality, verses being transformed into a toyota. I have never met a xs I didnt like, regardless of what it is. People have differant views of original too, we have a individual on this site that I consider a freind to some degree saying his bike has 50,000 miles plus on the engine. Well I know for a fact that engine has had one ballanced crank shaft installed in it, and another replacement crankshaft. It also has had major oiling modifications, carburation modifications. But yet he continues to tell all his stock engine has 50,000 plus miles on it. Yet he rants and raves about stock engines. Stock means just that stock. He is running a modified engine, regardless of what he says. maybe not performance mods but still mods. Same goes with the rest of the bike. Lets save them all and build really cool stock and modified bikes there all cool.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I raised my needles a notch. Am I screwed?
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Good stuff, Mr. Fisk.

Honestly, most of the "museum-quality" bikes are already in museums!

What saddens me is people hacking XSs because, "bobbers are selling for $1000 more than stock bikes". Rolling Eyes

If a person has a desire or vision for a bike, by all means, do it and share your fruits with the world.

But when they determine the future of their bike based on how much money it will make them -- be it a tracker, cafe, chop/bob/brat, or "restoration" -- well, IMHO they’re not really a supporter of the brand.

They're just flesh-peddlers.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

amen
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Roy you are correct that any new aftermarket part I have put on makes my bike modified from stock. I do try to stick with NOS where possible but a lot of those parts are just not available. Am I resto-modding? LOL I just want my bike like I like it but also want the technological upgrades like a Pamco, new aftermarket shocks, tapered steering head bearings etc because I want to improve it and ride it ALOT! I'm still jealous of the deals you got on the Bs! I have in my minds eye, like all of us , how my bike should be. No feathers ruffled here.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 7:21 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I think by restoration (not resteration),many people mean keeping the bike stock in appearance,without any frame mods or major design changes. Perhaps resto/mod would be a better adjective. While this may not be "technically correct",it gives a basic idea of how the bike looked and functioned when it was new. As far as being modified and no longer original,a statement can be made that tires that have had air added to them are no longer original,thus rendering the bike modified. If the owner WAS opting for a 100 point concours restoration,I agree with you,Roy. You would likely never find every part you need to make it 100% correct. Even if you did,you would likely never recoup your monetary investment,to say nothing of labor and time spent tracking down parts.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 7:30 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Bottom line in my book is that it's my bike and if I want to restore it or chop it that's my decision and if somebody doesn't like it --too bad!!
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 7:34 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

kingwj wrote:
I raised my needles a notch. Am I screwed?
Congratulations! You just lowered your bike's value by 30%.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

No I didnt start out looking to argue anything just hear people saying to advice seekers to restore there bike or dont chop it etc. it depreaciates the value. I agree if it is 100 % original. But one mod is as damageing to originality as a complete chop.
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 9:47 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

I don't remember if it was this site or another but someone bought a spankin mint 1975(I love that year) they showed pics of it still in the truck.They decided to destroy it by painting the tank silver and putting a street tracker seat on it,and in the process selling off many original parts.I might add that they didnt even do a very good job in the process of dropping the value $2500.I asked why he did it and told him he could have sold it and bought 3 other xs and had a grand left over.needless to say the PC people got on my case for being "rude" I was just being honest.It kills me to see someone take a nice piece of history and destroy it.I dont mind if people make bobbers or choppers out of xs's not that anyone would care if i minded. It just drives me nuts to see everyone using the same tc bros weld on hardtail, sportster tank and firestone tires,with wrapped pipes painted black.I just wish one person would change the rake when using that weld on hardtail so the backbone angle isn't so steep.Some of those bobbers look terrible from a design standpoint,they look like clown bikes. Just my two cents.Remeber standard frame for cafe or street tracker,special frame for chopping. And remember this an xs750 tank and omar seat does not make your xs a cafe racer.Man I'm going to catch hell for all of this
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 11:03 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

dpmphoto wrote:
I don't remember if it was this site or another but someone bought a spankin mint 1975(I love that year) they showed pics of it still in the truck.They decided to destroy it by painting the tank silver and putting a street tracker seat on it,and in the process selling off many original parts.I might add that they didnt even do a very good job in the process of dropping the value $2500.I asked why he did it and told him he could have sold it and bought 3 other xs and had a grand left over.needless to say the PC people got on my case for being "rude" I was just being honest.It kills me to see someone take a nice piece of history and destroy it.I dont mind if people make bobbers or choppers out of xs's not that anyone would care if i minded. It just drives me nuts to see everyone using the same tc bros weld on hardtail, sportster tank and firestone tires,with wrapped pipes painted black.I just wish one person would change the rake when using that weld on hardtail so the backbone angle isn't so steep.Some of those bobbers look terrible from a design standpoint,they look like clown bikes. Just my two cents.Remeber standard frame for cafe or street tracker,special frame for chopping. And remember this an xs750 tank and omar seat does not make your xs a cafe racer.Man I'm going to catch hell for all of this

Here is the link to the 75 that benztech bought and did the cafe conversion that you are rubbishing, you can check out your old post Web Page Name As the bike had aftermarket exhausts it would not fit into the restored category as described so is ripe for modification. As a new set of Mufflers and headers would more than likely have bought this back to a restored quality level, (judging by photos alone), and they could set you back, (if found), 1500+. 99.9% of you guys would not spend that on acquiring a bike let alone the time and money for a set of exhausts.

Personally i think the cafe racer that was built out of the 75 has been done tastefully and has an individual streak to it
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PostPosted: December 20, 2009, 11:08 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Dpm,I tend to agree with you on this topic (but not on Benztech's bike...I DO like that!). OMG! What is happening to me?
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PostPosted: December 21, 2009, 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Roy, you are describing a show winning bike with your description of a restored bike, (Original restored). Most club owners or owners who love to ride their bikes will not be so fussy

As to the steering head Bearings, bronze swing arm bushings, reg/rectifier, a pamco ignition upgrades, these things that can not be seen and are an improvement for reliability. then the bike is still considered as a restored stock with improvements. Even a nice set of aftermarket exhausts, Dunstalls or reverse cones, not a 2 into one, will not detract from the bike and can still be considered an upgrade on a restored bike
If it is looked at in terms of money then an original restored will top it out and, a restored with the improved upgrades would come second and a restored with aftermarket exhausts would come third. All three would be considered a collectors item and easily returned to an original restored stock condition.

The problem you guys have in the States is the value of your bikes, as they are not worth much (comparatively speaking) and there are still a lot around, so to restore, (not a show winning original), Just a nice daily ride is not worth the money you spend unless the value is to your self and the joy of owning a restored stock with improvements and not a resale value



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Here is an XS1 out of the crate bought about 10 years ago. Is not considered a restored bike as it is in original condition. The owner has been offered $25,000US and not interested
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This is a complete restore, here is a link to the bike and a description http://www.xs650.org.au/Restored%20Stock.htm This bike would be worth in the around the $10,000 mark maybe more
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p1120642.jpg
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Here is a link to the history of this bike http://www.xs650.org.au/ash_kidd.htm This bike is a daily rider, 80ks/50mls and would be worth $6-$7,000, Has had a 2nd oversize re bore and new pistons 6 months ago
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PostPosted: December 21, 2009, 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

650skull - You are right about the value of what will be (I hope) my daily rider. I like it because I don't have a payment and insurance is cheap!
What do you guys call those tags? MOT? Here we have annual inspection stickers.

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PostPosted: December 21, 2009, 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Guys there is a differance between restoring a bike and maintaining a bike. 99.9 % of the bikes I see on this site are nicely maintained bikes. (nothing wrong with that) . My own bikes are and will be well maintained. including my 75, and I have the correct exhaust for it. But restored look it up in the dictionary ( means to bring a object back to its original state). People use restored loosely these days. My dad restored a 37 indian 4 cylinder. Try that one on. That particular motor was a one year motor. one set of valves were as a flat head the other was overhead. All 4 cyl indians prior were flat heads, all after were overhead valve. As far as I know only massachucettes state police had them too. The bike was about 70% complete when purchased. Today it is 100 ^% restored 100% complete including the side car. I see a nice one of these sell for 18,000 at auction, I also see my dad turn down 35,000 the first one was yes nice but not restored. One can argue this all day long but just see what the judges say at worthy top notch shows and auctions.Heres a few pics of the chief before she was totally finished. In my opinion we as a majority ride nice street machinery, but restored not many.


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PostPosted: December 21, 2009, 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: My guidelines for resterations vs modifications

Just a note to let you know what it took to restore this was 20 years. the spokes and wheels were rotted off from it, was found in the basement of a barn burried in cow s***. rot was every where. I gues I get fluffed about resturations because I know what it takes to restore a bike. Attention to detail everywhere.
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