Mystery solved??

xsjohn · Posted: August 21, 2009, 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

230 degree cylinders on both sides @ 65 mph on the expressway 15 miles ......... engine was already at operating temperature before the run....ambient 85 degrees..........225 @ 55MPH.......about 54 mpg........done with all that temp stuff......now my starter is grinding again......off on something else........and I have to change the back tire AGAIN.....

And for all of you that think that retarding the timing a bit makes them run hot .....it doesn't on these....just smoothes out the lower rpms that we use most of the time....especially with taller gears....mine is set .168 thousands to the right of the F mark at 1200.....and will remain there....

xsjohn

xsleo · Posted: August 21, 2009, 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

I was out looking at the 650 Seca, it has a small set of deflectors mounted on the head over the front cam, one on each side. They push air down between the cams around the spark plugs.

xsjohn · Posted: August 21, 2009, 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Well I said I was done but saw another inconspicuous place especially on mine where the air could be ducted better and not easily seen..........

Now 225 degree cylinders @ 55 ....90 Degrees ambient.......

Follow up....70mph @ 88 ambient.......cylinders were 222 degrees......seems the faster I go the cooler it runs now......thats a switch and a blessing ......

So running them cooler could be viewed as a "performance modification".....

xsjohn

TeeCat · Posted: August 22, 2009, 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Here is the fitting that I'm using to make my plenums:

www.sfxperformance.com...PT8738.htm

I have the right side temporarily mounted outward of the header, and used a universal hardware kit from the same manufacturer to mount the plenum from the right downtube. I plan to duplicate the procedure on the left side.

The only thing that concerns me a little is that, for now, I'm using the ABS plastic intake tubes instead of the aluminum ones that they make. The closest part of the tubes will be about a half-inch from the headers, and I'll have to watch that during testing. It's supposed to be heat resistant plastic for underhood applications, so I hope it will be okay.

Tomorrow, I have to try to get a couple of slightly longer threaded rods for the mounts to try to move the tubes a little further from the exhaust. The mounting looks clean and secure, but I hope it doesn't vibrate too much; I'll be using thread locker on all fittings.

It looks pretty sick, if I must say so myself. Even my wife thought so! Pics after final installation and hopefully successful testing.

TC

pamcopete · Posted: August 22, 2009, 4:16 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

TeeCat,

Well, can't wait to see what you have come up with.

TeeCat · Posted: August 22, 2009, 4:39 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Should have something for your eyeballs possibly as soon as tomorrow, Pete. Keep your fingers crossed! Razz

TC

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

A few people have asked me to make louvers for them.....why not.....if you are interested PM me..... .............I can make the bracket for the front too........I have 1/8" thick ABS....stiff and dimpled one side and smooth gloss on the other.....suppose you could paint them with plastic paint if black doesn't suite ..........the carbon fiber is quite expensive I fouind.....the horn mount can be turned upside down to raise the horn....

So then I would be a needle and fin man.... hope my mother doesn't find out....... Laughing

The wife said..."why don't you build some bigger wings that stick straight out and try them at about 90 MPH and see what happens"....... Shocked

xsjohn

Retiredgentleman · Posted: August 23, 2009, 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

I suspect this is how the Wright brothers started. "Hey Orville, what do you think will happen if we make the wings a little bit bigger". "I don't know Wilbur, but its worth a try". Smile

John, don't you live close to Kittyhawk?

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 1:55 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

RG.....pretty close to Kitty Halk........at 90 mph and some wings would I need a small ramp too.......... Shocked

xsjohn

wally · Posted: August 23, 2009, 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Not much room here ...might have to have a look into this
I was very hot on the right yesterday Have opened up pilots & lifted needles see next week end how it goes

TeeCat · Posted: August 23, 2009, 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Guys, here's what I came up with. I might have to make some minor adjustments. I also have to decide whether to leave them as is - in ABS - or do them in aluminum. I'll also have to get a thermometer and take some measurements. They don't seem to vibrate too badly. I think the mounting config is fairly secure. We'll see how this goes. There were no permanent mods; it's a bolt-on entirely.

Again, this is Pete's idea... kudos to him. I just thought it'd be fun to roll the dice with it and see if I could some up with an interesting/attractive spin on it. But thanks to Pete for investigating this whole notion of using ambient air to lower the op temps..

TC

pamcopete · Posted: August 23, 2009, 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

TeeCat,

Well, that is impressive. Do you have a parts list and cost available?

TeeCat · Posted: August 23, 2009, 5:15 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Thanks, Pete... again, though, your idea.

Let me dig through my packaging and receipts... hope I still have it all. If not, I can find it on the web; Spectre has a good parts and price catalog. I think I can put something together in the next few days, at least to do it in ABS. These are off-the-shelf parts from PepBoys, incidentally.

So, give me a bit and I'll pull something together.

I kind of like it because the bulk of the parts are from the same company, and it doesn't look cobbled together, methinks. I wanted something that looks purpose-built. I think even the uninitiated might be able to look at it and go... "Oh! Cooling plenums! Yeah... that's what they are!"

TC

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Tee Cat......cool............but move the air blast up more toward the top of the cylinders......raise the tkubes.....makes it less fun the wider it gets......that is where the cylinder heat is the most prevalent...near the head.....I know it's easier down there but................then wonder on what can be done to the carbs to improve that.........R/L and all......ah what would I know...............and a directed blast will help but only to the outside of the cylinders...but it all makes a difference...........good job

xsjohn

TeeCat · Posted: August 23, 2009, 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Thanks, John. Hmm... that's how I mocked it up, but Pete was suggesting that I aim it more at the barrel because it has no fins and is out of the airflow. Hmmm... in any case, they can be rotated... that's part of the beauty of it, methinks.

y idle was a bit too high today, I noticed, after I bumped it up some. She ran famously at speed and through the gears, but she spat at me and stalled when I brought her home and put her away. Started right up again, though. Ah... another topic... still not ecstatic about how she seems to "load up" and spit after longer periods of low/blipping throttle... like easing her through the side yard and putting her up. I don't want her to do that in traffic! Sad

Floats are correct... yada yada... still not sure about the mixture. Oh, well... that's another thread. And the poor gal just simply sits too much... bottom line Sad

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Fins and all shouldn't make it run odd..........you need to raise the air up toward the top of the cylinders.........you did a good job there and not such an easy thing to move up since the pipes are bent outward there to move it up without going outward......looks good to me what you have done...... what's next.... the heat is mostly generated on the upper portion of the cylinders which is nearer the combustion heat ...what is next is to balance the cylinder temperatures with all that too......... ah what would I know.....not such an easy thing there but possible as I have found.............I know everyone hates carbs...........me I love them..............controling heat is a combination of things I'm afraid on these.......and 25 degrees makes a world of difference in the summer....but winter is coming soon so wtf.......... Laughing

TeeCat.......whish I could throw you on this ole 80.......wait.. I ain't getting off for know one............ Laughing

xsjohn

TeeCat · Posted: August 23, 2009, 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

John, right... I'm sure this latest mod has nothing to do with the bit of grumpiness this afternoon... I think that's a tuning issue... I just recently installed new throttle cables and have my idle a tad high. Maybe that's it.

I don't so much hate carbs as just get frustrated with all these variables. Been two years this month since I got her - stone dead - and I have come a long way, but she's still not "there" yet in terms of my comfort/trust of her... worry about misbehavior on the road and such.

John, I can rotate the plenums upward a tad. Glad you like the work I did, with Pete's concept, of course.

I need to get you up here... I'll buy the beer. Razz

TC

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Having a beer at the moment ....and thinking about all this heat .... don't trust my bs.... Laughing

It was just yesterday that I got mine running back just perfect ""again""....thought I was struck stupid ....but after fixing a leaky throttle shaft seal I was just plain struck stupid.....but back to running perfect again today after some tuning....these little devils......... Laughing

maybe flair the cylinder end of the vent so it blows upward some more torwards the greatest heat......not down there so much where it won't amount to much......but then again that's only the outside of the cylinders but everything helps.. love you guys that are working on the heat......thought I was the only one for years.....although everyone bitched about it...........

xsjohn

jayel · Posted: August 23, 2009, 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

I'm going to fiberglass a Igloo cooler around my cylinders and fill it with ice at every gas stop, a couple small drain holes should let the melt water run off........

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Mine is the coolest in the morning before I start it........ well at least it's what ever ambient is at that point...........and if it sets in the garage and is not ridden 6-8 hours a day in the summer like mine I'm sure it wouldn't matter......73K today ....74K soon....and Obama will demand the temps be much lower soon...Al Gore for President in 2012..... just to finnish us off for sure then....just in case everything hasen't already moved to China thanks to Bill the Fiicken Democrat Clinton with his fast tract NAFTA in 1994 while you all were asleep....not me I spent 1500 bucks calling congress.......but our good friends in China are there for us now ...and it was Bill Gates in the 90's not Bill Clinton that held us afloat....remember that if you can...don't start... sorry I am pissed to death with all these liberals......and the rest of them for that matter....... Laughing

xsjohn

weekendrider · Posted: August 23, 2009, 10:20 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

jayel will it be yellow also? ROFL

xsjohn · Posted: August 23, 2009, 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Green is the new color .......order it from China.......went to Lowes to buy a stick (dowell rod).....made in China it was....we can't make a stick.........but new jobs are coming......what a joke...... Laughing

xsjohn

TeeCat · Posted: August 24, 2009, 5:53 am Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Hopefully I'll have a slow day at work today. If so, I might have a few minutes to put together a serviceable list of parts and prices in case anyone wants to replicate this.

TC

TeeCat · Posted: August 24, 2009, 8:15 am Post subject: Re: Mystery solved??

Here we are, Pete and any other curious/interested parties:

(2) Air intake mounting bracket kit - Part# 9701; Price: $18.99 each (Pep Boys was less, as I recall.)

(2) 3" tube connector clamp - Part# 9406; Price: $11.99 each

(2) 45-degree 3" elbow, chrome ABS plastic (also available in polished aluminum) - Part# 8738; Price: $14.99 each

(2) 3" to 2.5" reducer - Part# 8751; Price: $7.99 each (comes with clamps, which are optional for this application since it is flowing non-pressurized air)

(2) 3/4" stainless steel plumbing pinch clamps (local hardware store) - approx $1.00 each

- Assorted bolts, nuts, flat washers, lock washers

- Loctite (blue) thread locker

Note: I put a steel spacer (about 1/2 to 3/4") on the mounting point of the left-side pinch clamp to allow me to get the right distance of the left plenum from the header. Use Loctite Blue on the bolt that affixes the "L" of the mounting kit to the pinch clamp.

TC

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