Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Like I said earlier I made a call to Lonnie at northwest sidecar for a new shock but he told me the problem was more in the shock mount placement then the shock it’s self. He then told me he sold a kit that would fix it, new swing arm with 20mm axel, shock, wheel+tire and the price he gave me was good for all that product. But his kit did not come with a brake and like I said earlier I thought the sidecar should have one. Not wanting to give up my Velorex brake I passed on his kit and I made the swing arm with mount on the other side of the axel just like his and that has made a great improvement! Another thing he was right about was the Velorex 562 brakes, waste of time on my part, without someone in the chair brakes are useless on this car, and even with someone in the chair they don’t have any stopping power, so I now have the nicest parking brake around. If I had it to do all over again I would just buy this kit. I still think if you are going to be carrying a passenger in the car you should have a brake (Imho), but with out the weight of a passenger and a light sidecar I can see not needing one.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Steering Dampener: I have had steering dampeners in the past but they have always been for two wheels, not sidecar use. I liked them in the past because I could dial in the amount of tension in the front end and get the feel I liked. With the sidecar however I’m trying to fix an undesirable characteristic, front end wobble associated with attaching a sidecar to a motorcycle. Now with the dampener in place the front end wobbles are not as dramatic as they were but they are still very much there, just now they have a band aid over them, not a fix. Also a characteristic of adding a sidecar is the front end becomes hard to turn in a corner (force needed to turn) and the faster you go the more force needed, and the added resistance of the dampener just makes it harder. So “my opinion” on the dampener? I would just skip it next time Wink

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Fork Brace: For time invested and money spent this was my best single mod! WOW what a difference! Front end feels “thick, solid, tight” however you want to describe it? Not to beat up on the store bought brace but I made mine and it is lower to the tire and almost twice as thick in gage and diameter then the store bought, VERY stout! An hour to make and $15 worth of materials, what a deal Very Happy

Barbara · Posted: June 21, 2009, 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

That fork brace looks good, too! I wonder how it would be to make one to accommodate a front fender...I ride year-round, and in the beautiful Pacific Northwest, we get a heavy drizzle of rain now and then.....when it's not pouring! Laughing

Completely agree about steering damper and sidecar brake. Although, maybe one of the older Brit style dampers--the screw-in kind that are adjustable while going down the road--might be a neat addition. However, you'd have to remember to loosen it for corners, and that would get old fast.....some sort of power steering would be nice--my shoulders ache after four or five hundred miles, even when it is mostly straight freeway.

But whatever the challenges, the number of smiles per mile can't be beat!

xsleo · Posted: June 21, 2009, 6:54 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

On the old Harleys they used an adjustable set of trees, one setting wthout the side car and one with the side car. On the new ones they sell a different tree to use with the sidecar.
I think with a side car the trees changed the rake of the front end, made it less, by a few degrees. I suppose it was to make it handle better with a side car.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Drilled Rotor: I would like to say I found a huge difference with the drilled rotor but I did not, until today maybe? I say maybe because I have nothing to compare it too, no before and after panic stop, whops, just jumped ahead of myself. We were on our way to get an ice cream but it started to rain so we turned around to go home. Almost home it started to pour, two cars ahead of me was stopping to take a left, the guy in front of me had no, I mean no brake lights! Nodda, nothing, zip. We were not going fast, maybe 30? So nothing dramatic to report but I did lock’em up front and rear (again pouring) I had plenty of room to stop or even go around but what fun is that? The sidecar gave me a sudden jerk to the left but a quick correction and the whole outfit slid strait ahead. I don’t ever recall being able to lock up the front before? (All new bikes of mine go thru a 5min back road torture test LOL) My wife looked up and yelled “well the brakes work!” with that look on her face; you married people know the look I’m talking about “stupid, dumb ass etc… So maybe the holes help? One thing for sure is the stainless line helps! It does not make an old bike feel modern but definitely better then a 30yr old sponge for a brake line, go spend the 28 bucks and you can thank me later.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

So now with my suspension stiff the sidecar doesn’t sink 6” when someone is in it. That makes setting up the outfit easier and the compromise between empty chair and passenger much narrower. This whole sidecar thing forces you to live in a world of compromise, at least that’s been my experience so far. There are expensive things that make driving an outfit easier like “electric lean” or a cheaper “manual” alternative. This way you can adjust lean out for empty chair or passenger. With the drag of a sidecar hanging 3ft off the right side of your bike you need to have the motorcycle lean away from the sidecar to compensate for the constant tug to the right. A properly set up sidecar outfit should track nice and strait and not pull to either side while just driving along, it should be “neutral”. With the extra weight of a passenger your sidecar will sink down a little changing lean out of the bike making the whole outfit want to pull to the right, making you constantly pushing the bars to the left to compensate, this “tug of war” can get tiring quick. But if I had electric lean I could compensate at the touch of a button and make all this just go away, Oh joy!

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Turning these things can be a chore. The faster you go the harder it is to turn and there is only one solution but with many ways to get there, and that is to reduce trail. Reducing trail will give you very light steering and get rid of the dreaded front-end wobble to boot! Also it will help in the sidecar “tug of war” because of changing road conditions that are constantly pulling and pushing you around. This thing wants to travel the path of least resistance and that is determined by road camber mostly. I’m only familiar with this subject because of my chopper building experience although I’m still no expert. I know a raked front end can feel heavy at slow speed but very stable while underway. With a raked front end on a chopper you can see the whole bike lift a little as you turn the front end side to side. You can get rid of this by reducing trail some, not too much as the “bad shopping cart wheel syndrome” appears. So what are my alternatives to make this turn easier? #1 Rake the trees not the neck, this will reduce trail. “Steerite” offers this service and quoted $750usd +back and forth shipping to do an xs650 tree. #2 leading link front end, cost? About $2,500usd. Not to boast but I’m sure I could make this, but then again maybe I’m too confident in my abilities? #3 Modify my lower legs or make adaptor plates to move the wheel and brake forward. #4 raked neck cups, this is popualar with the Harley crowd but would requre some machining time (and knowhow Rolling Eyes

) for me to have a set. I’m sure there are other ways to skin a cat but here are a few.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

With your welding and fabbing talents, you might consider making up a sub frame to attach the car to the bike with. '70s BMW R bikes use these as their frames were really not designed for sidecar use. The sub frame stiffens the bike frame but more importantly, gives lower mounting points for the bottom car struts. Keeping the car as low as possible will make it ride better and stay down in those right hand turns better. Here's a link with a few pics .....

www.bmwmoa.org/forum/s...p?p=263286

The one in the link is quite elaborate but I've seen them as simple as a length of heavy bar stock slung under and attached to the main frame.

I started out with my Velorex attached to a /5 BMW and no sub frame. This was all new to me and I didn't even know about sub frames. I thought the rig rode and handled OK but it did lift very easily in right hand turns. I used to carry a plastic 5 gal. gas can filled with sand for ballast when the car was empty. I moved on to an R90/6/2, a conversion as they are called. This is a '60s BMW frame with a newer more powerful motor (a 900 in my case) swapped in. What a difference, what a world of difference. The /2 frame is made to take a car and has the Earls leading link fork. The fork has 2 positions for it's swingarm - solo and sidecar. Move the arm into it's forward pivot hole and this lengthens the wheelbase and changes the rake and trail for sidecar use. The bike frame also mounts the car nice and low. I found I didn't need that 5 gal. can for ballast anymore.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi 5twins, thank you VERY much for the info, hearing from others with experience like you and Barb is a big help to me on my journey Wink

I'm starting to get discuraged but must press on. p.s. just read that post and info on subframe, I've seen the subframe deal before but never gave it another look, now you got me thinking? thanks again Smile

Barbara · Posted: June 22, 2009, 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Hi Guys,

A few years ago I bought a BSA B44 set up for desert sidecar racing. It had a leading link fork--an aftermarket one, obviously--and I thought about keeping it in case I ever wanted to put a sidecar on the little BSA, but I was offered half of the cost of the bike for it, so I sold it.

They do work--it's odd to get used to not having the front end dive under braking, but they are stable. I've heard that they are the best for sidecar use, but honestly, I sold it because it looked weird on the front of the BSA. The other thing was that it was set up for a SLS BSA brake, which would be worse than useless in modern traffic. Not having anything like the skills and tools of Gordon, I took the money and ran.....

Sidecars are odd beasts, and subject to lots of outside influences: mine is set up for the average road crown here in Washington. I notice a difference in Idaho and Montana, but not in Oregon. I wonder if road crowns vary much from state to state--maybe due to weather?

Sub-frames. I've seen outfits with them, and it seems like a great idea. I haven't gone that route, because my present chair came from a Harley, and has four very stout mounting points, two front and two rear, and with the addition of two bracing rods I fabricated (maybe introducing a new low for the use of the word "fabricated...1/4" flat-stock, heated and bent to fit...) anyway--she doesn't flex, and I can fly the chair whenever I want to, if it isn't loaded. I should mention that I have shocks on the Yam that came from a Triumph, and they are fairly stiff, and I have the chair shock set to maximum. The "Spirit of America" chairs had straightforward suspension design, and I didn't need to mess around with it, as Gordon had to with the Velorex.

Oh, I've been meaning to mention--if you guys haven't checked it out yet, you might check out Sidecar.com---nice people, helpful, and a ton of information. I post over there now and then, and lurk a lot.... Very Happy

Barbara · Posted: June 22, 2009, 11:45 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

PS to the above post--Gordon, in the picture of your front drilled disc: are the spokes custom laced on that wheel? They must work well after trial by emergency stop, so to speak, and they look kinda neat, too....did you lace them?

(I have a friend who is relacing the front wheel of her Honda and slowly going insane. I had to do the first rear wheel on the XS and it took my brother and I about four hours and God knows how much beer......not my favorite job on a bike!)

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

Spoke wheels can be a weak point in sidecar use. All the side flex tends to loosen the spokes, especially on the rear. 16" rears are probably better because of their shorter spokes (stiffer) and the Heritage wheels would also be a plus because they have more spokes to share the load (72 front, 48 rear, I think). Cast mags would be the most trouble-free. I think I would try to use those on an XS side hack, at least in the rear.

royfisk · Posted: June 22, 2009, 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

5 twins that is not true. Spoked wheels have been used since the beginning of motorcycleing and so has side cars. My dads indian 4 has a hack on it and it has I dont know how many thousands of miles on it and wheel problams have not haunted him. Also note that the indian used 19" wheels front and rear, with a fairly small hub and long spoke. Also look at the cars that use spoked wheels throughout history. The only spoke problams I have ever experianced were ones that were improperly installed from the get go. But my point here is that if the old lead sled bikes dont have problams with spokes and be;eive me the hacks weight and bike weight of a indian 4 far exceds the weight of a yamaha 650 and hack. Then there shouldnt be any problams. I do have to say however the mag wheels are more stout. But I do not beleive that spoked wheels are by any means a handicap on a hack.

Barbara · Posted: June 22, 2009, 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Hi Roy,

Well....kinda right and not so much.....it depends on how well the combination is set up. With my first sidecar, I just mounted it and trusted to luck, and had to replace the rear wheel spokes on the XS as a result....oh, and the spokes on the sidecar wheel, too.

I learned from the experience, and haven't had a problem with this newer sidecar---also, I went from alloy rims to steel rims so there might be a bit less flex under stress.

I've got 6000 miles on the new chair and no spoke problems, but if I ran across a cast wheel, I'd grab it, just to be sure.....

And I'd LOVE to see that Indian with the sidecar! My Pop rode Indians: he used to say, "Harley Davidson, Made of Tin--Ride it out, Push it in!" Laughing

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Guys, Barb I agree, the leading link design has a very interesting look, I think you either like it or don’t. I personally think they look neat, like it should be in a” mad max” movie or something. And it’s interesting Barb that you say your leading link front end was neutral during braking, I never thought about that characteristic before but should have. I can’t find any technical info on leading link front ends just pictures, but I’ve looked at those for hours. After Barb said that about her front end I looked at those pictures some more. This is a benefit to a leading link I never considered. This “no dive” effect happens because the pivot point of the forward facing swing arm (lack of better term, don’t know what it’s called) is lined up perfect with the front axel (Geometry). If it were higher then the front axel (again geometry not actual horizontal plane) it could rise over the tire some during braking causing the front end to rise. On the other hand if the pivot point is too low the front end should sink during braking like what we are all used too. Sounds like Barb’s bike was set up with the axel and pivot point perfect (including for her weight) and the fabricator of that front end knew what they were doing. This is a shared characteristic of some corrected trail chopper front ends as well and I should have made the connection. Look ma I’m learning! Very Happy

P.S. that’s just a stock heritage wheel painted black, lacing just takes patients Barb, that’s why my friend does it for me

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Roy and I just had this conversation. I agree the mags are tougher and better for sidecar use but the cost is a lot of rolling mass, harder to start and stop.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

Sorry, what I meant to say was alloy spoked wheels. They flex more than steel ones and can be a problem. The 18" rear alloy rim on my /5 loosened spokes and even broke a few. The BMWs of the '60s came stock with alloy spoked wheels. Steel "sidecar" rims were offered as an option and recommended for sidecar use. My /2 conversion has the steel rims and I've never had spoke problems with it.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

I suppose I should show you, huh?

JeffM · Posted: June 22, 2009, 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Damn that is a cool bike 5twins.

Retiredgentleman · Posted: June 22, 2009, 11:55 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Ditto!

nudude53 · Posted: June 23, 2009, 12:08 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Don't let the sawz-all crowd find it.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

I second that ditto making it a "thitto" Wink

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

nudude53 wrote:

Don't let the sawz-all crowd find it.

Nothings too nice for us chopper guys not to cut up and make better Smile

and besides it just makes the survivors worth more. All kidding aside that is a beautiful bike and it must turn plenty of heads going down the road Wink

p.s. Nudude, I might head down to Mooresville this summer for a bit, where in N.C. are ya?

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