traditional honing methods or...?

XSiveAl · Posted: April 21, 2009, 8:47 pm Post subject: traditional honing methods or...?

Greetings, do-it-yourselfers

I've got to hone my cylinders before reassembly.. everythings in spec and all but my walls are glazed from the rings not seating previously..

are there any alternatives to traditional honing methods to be considered.. can you do it by hand with sandpaper,.. scotch brite,.. etc?

not trying to cheapout.. but, to be cost-effective. I know ball hones are the tool of choice, but does anybody have other ideas?

-XSiveAL

xsjohn

Too much honing and it sure won't be a virgin......big holes aren't much use to me.....I just use 180 or 220 a bit where the rings ride........but always get beat for mentioning it.......but I ain't scared of hitting it with soda if I wimp in the honing........

Others may have a better approach than I.....does sound a bit shade tree....... Laughing

xsjohn

Retiredgentleman

My engine was not high KMs, only 19,700 kms. The cylinders and pistons were in spec. and I was putting in new rings. I used 240 emery paper to de-glaze by hand. Cylinders were then thoroughly washed twice with hot water and soap. I'm happy with the results so far.

I've not accumulated many kms yet, but engine is not using any oil, does not smoke and plug colour is good.

Yeah, John and I will probably take verbal abuse, for not using some fancy ball hone. Smile

XSiveAl

XsJohn, RG,..

Got my valves together with the new seals last night. Only needed to lap the exhaust valves very lightly,.. intake valves looked really good so I'll just leave them alone. the new seals are in much better condition than the old ones.

I took a really close look at the cylinder walls. Holding it sideways to the light, I can see that the crosshatch lines of the previous honing are still visible. It looks really shiny though., kinda like a mirror with the lines behind the glass. I guess that's a good example of glazing?, so I think I should still rough it a little bit for the rings. I am too a little anxious about removing too much (or any) material from anything,. could I just use XSJohn's baking soda remedy?

pretty sure I can do it evenly by hand and well convinced I could do more damage with a hone on a drill.. and that the cylinders don't need boring. I 'll try it.

one more question though, when using the fine sandpaper do you think it's necessary to imitate the crosshatching?

-XSiveAL

xsjohn

Baking soda is a last resort.........rough it a bit.......xsjohn

tacoswild

Did you guys buy the tool to take measurements in the bore? I took mine to the machine shop. Bores weren't too bad but one piston is messed up and one exhaust valve too pitted to be machined. I'm kinda glad I got a pro to look at it.

Retiredgentleman

XSiveAl;
I'd recommend you lap all 4 valves when the engine is apart.

If you're not experienced with engine re-builds, I recommend you take the cylinders and pistons to a motorcycle or automotive machine shop. They have the special tools (inside micrometers, outside micrometers, dial indicators etc), and knowledge, to check on your cylinder taper and cylinder to piston clearance. If they are worn, you can get a price for their machining. Its money well spent.

A shop might only use a ball hone if cylinders are not badly worn. Its also possible you wouild need to go to an oversize piston, and then machine the cylinder to fit.

woodman · Full Member Joined: Oct 12, 2008 Posts: 256

Just curious if anyone has made or used a block plate to hone the cylinders and if it made any difference ?

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

You won't hurt the cylinders with a good hone unless you hold it in one place too long. Just keep working that hone in and out (like some other things you pump in and out). Keep the bore wet with solvent -- not oil -- work the drill at high speed and work the hone in and out for a minute or two -- no longer than it takes to break the glaze and get a nice crosshatch pattern. You'll probably be fine.

I think it helps break-in to always use new rings, but I don't wanna start a fight so I won't say that here. Smile

XSiveAl

Hi all,

I'm 95% sure, by the evidence I've found, that the PO had this motor rebuilt, the head gasket was not insalled properly and failed. It wasn't ridden much and they left it at that. It then sat for ten years after the work was done.

the motor must have parted ways with the frame sometime in between then and when I picked it up, 2 years ago, as a serious basket case. I found that the frame and motor were of 2 different years.. the wiring was from another year,.. boxes of electrical came with it,.. extra signals,.. rear fender and lights,.. etc.. mind boggling at first but, now it's almost all one piece.

When I found the ad and looked at it for the first time, I was very hopeful of it's internal condition because of how absolutely clean it was on the outside. I couldn't believe it, it looked brand new. I wasn't convinced, but I thought maybe it was on the rebuild side of a project. The teardown already done for me.

I didn't bother to do any tests or inspections of the motor.. the electrical was just F$%@ed so I fixed that. The carb was filthy and had wrong jets and float levels,..

but the motor..really, I only changed the oil, tightened the cam chain,.. adjusted the valves, replaced the contact points with some shinier ones,.. timed it... added new sparks and cables, and fired it up.

It started easily, but smoked relentlessly.

The damage to the head gasket was hugely obvious as well as the trail from oil and vapour leadng to the sooty pistons. There was nearly equal damage to both sides. If I hadn't had the cylinders off I'd have thought to run them and the rings, but the base gasket seperated when I was rubber malleting the head off.

The cylinder walls look too shiny and there is no ridge at all at the top of the piston stroke so I believe that the excessive oil from the leak prevented proper seating of the rings.

I'm going to try the light sanding, I'm almost sure I could get away with throwing it together as it is.

I received a new set of stock rings from XSdirect. They measured up in the bore better with a gap check at the top, mid, and bottom. I measured them very carefully with a slide rule to ensure accuracy and I've put them on the pistons. They appear to be better quality as well, but it's only a guess.

I think it'll run great now, without that whole sucking the oil into the cylinders thing it was doing. Knowing this, I won't be satisfied unless I can put it together assuredly leak free.

I read throught the leakless thread on 650garage... varying opinions... oil,.. grease,.. three bond,. koppercote,.. bare,.. it is my experience that perfectly clean is the goal and gaskets are usually chemically treated or swell with presence of hot oil under pressure. Some threads suggest that the Mike's XS kits are treated already... but myself, I've only done small 2-cycle motors, bike side cases, and truck valve covers and oil pans before and would value the opinion of more experienced wrenches.

does anyone have a relatively fail proof method for the top end gaskets?

RG,. if you wouldn't mind,.. could you describe your approach in detail?

I plan to use the Athena gaskets I ordered despite that it seems popular opinion has declared them garbage. oh well, the least I can do is try them and post my results.

If I have to I'll order yamaha originals and take it apart again.

thanks,
-XSiveAl

jimmer

Top end gaskets? One place you can make an error on rebuild ... if first timer. When installing the camshaft ... you need to pay attention to centering it ... AND making sure the 2 roller bearings on each side are PUSHED in toward the center ... and that you have an equidistant measurement on each side.

If you screw that up ... its possible that oil will leak from the points and advance housing covers ... as they may not bottom out on the gaskets and o-ring .... because the housings could bottom out on the bearings before they contact the gaskets. Thats a mouthful ... many have learned that the hard way.

kyle1911

320 grit, WD-40, and about 20 minutes of slicing your hand. If you know what a 45 degree crosshatch looks like, just do your best to replicate it by hand. This is not the space shuttle, and I have done this plenty of times, and never had a problem. If the cylinders measure ok (top, center, and bottom, X and Y axis, just follow the manual), then all you are doing is setting up a new surface for the new rings. If you don't tell anyone, I have even reused old rings, that were IN SPEC, not worn out, in a sandpaper honed cylinder, after GENTLY rubbing them with 800 grit, around their circumference. It's butchery, but trackside, 100miles from home, what are you gonna do? Funny thing is, that motor ran hard, for another 2 years. I could tell no diff. One point. no matter which method you use, after honing or sanding, sneak the toilet brush outside, and with a 5 gallon bucket of scalding hot soapy water, scrub like you mean it. Then rinse. You'll do fine, as long as the measurements are ok. Kyle (Free bad advice, your mileage may vary:)

kyle1911

One last afterthought... Don't wanna start a fire, but the Athena gaskets I got were trash. I used them only in places I could get to, if and when they leak. I could make more accurate gaskets, after a long day, and a half rack. And that's with a ball peen hammer, and NAPA gasket paper. Head and base gaskets were Cometic. Not cheap, but are you looking forward to pulling the engine again, because the gaskets were Cr#$?

XSiveAl

Pulled it apart this time 'cause one of those black ones had slipped backward far enough to allow the pistons to contact the metal rings of the gasket. it's not a big deal to get to that point, just a few hours, but of course who would want to go through it again if they could avoid it?

I've heard the cometic gaskets are top of the line.. I wonder if I can find a good Canadian distributer.,

If the Athena rebuild gaskets are so bad... why would Mike's XS want to have anything to do with them.. wouldn't that be bad for their reputation?

-XSiveAl

XSiveAl

Jimmer... thanks for the good advice on the camshaft bearings.. my Yamah Dealer manual says the same.. push 'em in as far as they'll go and check for equal positioning of the bearings where they fit.. slide rule's a good idea to be sure. makes sense it would interfere with the fit of the rocker cover.. possibly affect camchain position on the guides too.
-AL

kyle1911

I believe Athena is the only company still producing a complete gasket kit for these bikes. Cometic has many, but not all, and no kit. I don't know about Vesrah. That said, Mike sells what he gets, and they do work. I just didn't like the quality, and spotted real potential for problems in the head and base gaskets. I used the o-rings, and some of the gaskets from the kit, and Cometic for most of the rest. The Cometic head gasket fit my Mike's 750 kit light years better than the Athena stuff. Regards, Kyle

tacoswild

I'm going to try Mike's "improved" base gasket on mine but I got a stock yamaha 256 head gasket for nine bucks on ebay. Got the rings and an exhaust valve from the same place, NW vintage cycle parts in Oregon.

XSiveAl

Got inspired last night and tore apart another motor to salvage the old headgasket. Gasket is in great shape with just a little damage to its surface at the front of the cam chain tunnel. no luck getting the base off in one piece.

In comparing it to the Athena gasket I've got.. It's way stiffer and seems tougher but, will it have lost its compressability and leak anyway? it has been suggested that reusing them is ok or even better than replacements with an appplication of koppercote,.. pam,.. grease,..rtv, etc.. all sorts of tricks out there.

decisions decisions.. they didn't bond them at the factory... my yamaha dealer service manual does not mention a sealer to be applied anywhere but the cam cover.. and of course only very thin.

found some suzuki guys thread claiming his last two cometic head gaskets leaked and that he preferred the Athena kits.. but there's gotta be one outside of the average.. just to screw up the stats.

what a thing to get hung up on. I'm really tempted just to use them.. dry. and see what happens. Supposedly, as advertised by some of their distributers, the Athena gaskets are coated with a "revolutionary transparent coating" activated by heat and one might consider that it could be that the coating doesn't react well to some of the chemical sealers out there.. I"ve heard of this before.. just like some paints that have high concentrations of solvent will dissolve the previously applied coat. this could be part of the associated problems with them.... maybe?

Suprisingly, Athena's web site doesn't seem to have any tech info at all.. just sales crap and with all of the varying opinions.. I'm just going to have to consider it my role in this game to experiment with different gasket types and methods until I find one that works reliably and advertise that in bold type to the forum.

thanks for all your input guys... for the sake of determing a "fool-proof" technique, I will gladly experiment with any reasonable sugestions.

And as for the honing.. that's an easy choice now.. I'm gonna do it by hand.

I know I'll be into these motors again and again over the next few seasons... I want to know how to do everything I can as independently as possible.. without the 65/hr shop charge, I mean. I'd like to be a backyard XS Xpert... I'll just have to read.. experiment,.. collect opinions, pick up some new curse words, and cross my fingers.

-XSiveAL

xsjohn

Just send that head gasket to me if you would...........don't reuse the bottom gaskets......lot more trouble to get to that one..........

xsjohn

XSiveAl

funny,.. i was just reading in the "gasket tips" thread where you were describing building up the damaged areas of the head gasket with high temp paint..

If you want, John.. I can send it to you... for your collection. I think I have another.. let me get the next one out of the '76 I have and see how it looks.. I'll trade you this one for more of your wisdom.

I'm a little iffy about reusing them, but of course... I'm a little iffy about brand new one's too.. be good to have at least one stocker around to experiment with.

AL

xsjohn

Would appreciate the old original head gaskets and half decent old cam chains...........will be put to good use..... Very Happy

......thanks

Orange paint is still seen that I sprayed between them....may use something different next time but no leak..........2 gaskets....and pam.... and had to retard the cam 2 degrees........a perfect and cool runner now for sure...laugh at me if you must but you would have to ride it......no semblance of the ratty XS especially with the timing retarded some....not sure I lost enought power to even notice..........but other things like being able to stand to ride it after 68 thou was nice..............pulls off from 1800 with out notice and pulls 18/29.....and idols at 1100 like a tractor...and all engine noises are gone....... Very Happy

xsjohn

Retiredgentleman

When installing the head gasket, it was recommended to me (5twins) to put a thin bead of 3-bond 1104 around the camchain tunnel and the 4 outer studs that are exposed to oil. I think it's a wise precaution.

Weather turned cold again, so I've only had a chance to put on 275 kms. So far everything looks great with the engine.

XSiveAl

After some work some re-reading through your top end rebuild thread, RG, I realize you guys have been through this gasket debate before...

this is what Mike from MikesXS wrote..

"Athena Head and base gaskets are chemically treated (ours) and should Not have gasket cement applied. Retorque top end after engine gets hot."
Mike Lalonde Mikes XS

I trust it's true but, after thinking it through I bet that the cam chain tunnel and studs would probably benefit from the extra adhesion of the 3bond to keep that oil from leaking through to the cylinders.

so with all your help, I have a great plan of attack now..

I will hone the cylinders by hand and clean them in hot soapy water, with a toilet brush!,
I will lap the intake valves.
I will ensure gasket surfaces are as clean as possible and then reclean them with laquer thinner.
I will apply the bead of 3bond to the head gasket as prescribed by 5twins/RG,

and then I will send my old gaskets to XSJohn if it works...

-XSiveAl

XSiveAl

What I did:

I honed the cylinders by hand with sand paper making a crosshatch pattern and then rinsed them out in a bucket of soapy waterand then oiled the bore, pistons and rings.

lapped the intakes
cleaned everything again.
rinsed with laquer thinner
assembled the motor using 3bond on the head gasket.
I torqued, it sat over night, I retorqued.

The first time I started it, it was very easy, it fired right up and I smiled and then I nearly cried cause the miserable %*&! thing was smoking worse than before.

so... I took it apart again knowing that I should have trusted my instinct to replace the valves and their guides all along. I thought they were ok cause they didn't rock... turns out you should check them in different positions. wow, brilliant.

If smoke comes out your head, your guides/valves are toast...

and also I was advised that you should use a small piece of tubing to slip the valve stem seals over the sharp edges of the stem every time you install or remove them to help avoid tiny tears which will allow oil to sneak past and enter the clinder or to collect on the top of the valves.. and smoke. Just oiling them, what i did, may not be enough.

Got the guides and valves from XSdirect and had a local machinist install them for a reasonable price cause I didn't think I could do it as well in my kitchen as they could. I reassembled the motor with 3bond around the cam chain tunnel and outer studs using the Athena headgasket and the brass head washers from XSdirect.

I've ridden 650Km so far and it doesn't burn or leak any oil at all, the gaskets are all still where they are supposed to be, and I'm super happy with the power this bike makes.

It's running great and on the road... thanks a lot everybody!!

I'll keep an eye on the gaskets, retorque the head nuts, and do a compression test in another 500Km.

-XSiveAl

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