Fork seals, fork removal and oil question.

oldbikenut

I know this subject has been covered quite a bit, I'd like to put it on one thread and I'll post pictures as it goes.

I have a 78 XS650SE:

First does the compete forks need to be removed from the triple tree for seal replacement or can I just remove the lower section?

And what's the best oil to use in the fork and do I need to use fork oil or can I use motor oil?

jayel

it's easier to pull the whole leg as a unit, loosen top and lower pinch bolts twist/wiggle tube out of the clamps, gets it out where you can see what you're doing.... you can use motor oil but might be a little stiff suspensionwise if you do try 10W-30 easy enough to change if you don't like it

Retiredgentleman

oldbikenut;
If you don't want to remove the forks from the triple trees, you can just remove the lower fork legs. That's how I did mine when I replaced the seals.

I use 15W40 diesel, same as I put in my engine. I tried 10 weight oil, but it was too soft and mushy. 15W40 works well for me.
7 oz. or 203 cc. per fork.

Do you have a means to hold the damper rod, while you remove the 8 mm allen head bolt?

Xumi

I'll be performing this operation soon as well - I've been searching on the site to find a good how-to, but haven't come across anything.

oldbikenut

My last set of forks seals I did(on my yamaha RT1), I removed the whole unit and it went okay, I thought I may save a little time and sounds like the process can be done either way.

Regarding the damper rod, I believe this is the same set-up as my RT1 and I think I used part of an old tire tube and a good clamp and I was able to loosen the screw. Do you have any suggestions to make this process easier?

Regarding oil, it to sounds like a personal choice and I'll just need to try some different weights and see what feels comfortable.

oldbikenut

Xumi wrote:

I'll be performing this operation soon as well - I've been searching on the site to find a good how-to, but haven't come across anything.

Cool! Wish you lived a little closer, we could do our fork seals at the same time. I'm going to do my forks this weekend and I'll post pictures of the whole process.

jayel

the thing is once you get started pulling down the front end, front wheel off, fender removed, ect. it's not that much harder to pull the trees and either re-grease the steering head ball bearings or replace with the tapered bearings, I drilled and tapped a zerk into the neck

Xumi

oldbikenut wrote:

Xumi wrote:

I'll be performing this operation soon as well - I've been searching on the site to find a good how-to, but haven't come across anything.

Cool! Wish you lived a little closer, we could do our fork seals at the same time. I'm going to do my forks this weekend and I'll post pictures of the whole process.

Sweet - I look forward to it. Unfortunately, a home improvement project took over the garage for proabably about another week.. I'm hoping to tear into it after that. I look forward to your pics!

pumps

I like that idea jayel...

jayel

pumps wrote:

I like that idea jayel...

bikes used to have zerks all over, guess it was so you could actually take care of them, now days ride them a couple years and they want you to buy a new one... throw away society.... grumble, grumble......
back in the day it was uphill both ways

pumps

Just like suspension components on my loser cruiser...uh I mean minivan. Sealed, no greasing.

Retiredgentleman

A simple tool can be made up for the 78 to 83 models, to hold the damper rod from rotating.

You need 3 feet of 7/16" threaded rod and 8 of 7/16" nuts. Put 5 nuts on the bottom of rod and lock them together. Put 3 nuts on the top of rod and lock them together. The bottom nuts must be at the very bottom of the rod.

Insert the rod down into the stantion, and the nut will fit into the head of the damper rod. One person puts a wrench on the top of the rod, while the other person unscrews the 8 mm allen head bolt.

yamaman

If you use a rattle gun to undo the damper bolt, 99% of the time it will undo. If you leave the staunchions in the trees, it can make life easier, they are the best vice! At least remove the springs while in situ!
Still, even if you don't remove the staunchions, pull all the bolts out one at a time and never seize them. And as Jayel says, it's the best time to do the steering bearings. Brakes & wheel bearings need to be checked now too!

I had a bottle of 10w and a bottle of 15w lying around last time I did it, so I mixed them up to make 12 1/2w - worked out great!

oldbikenut

Retiredgentleman wrote:

A simple tool can be made up for the 78 to 83 models, to hold the damper rod from rotating.

You need 3 feet of 7/16" threaded rod and 8 of 7/16" nuts. Put 5 nuts on the bottom of rod and lock them together. Put 3 nuts on the top of rod and lock them together. The bottom nuts must be at the very bottom of the rod.

Insert the rod down into the stantion, and the nut will fit into the head of the damper rod. One person puts a wrench on the top of the rod, while the other person unscrews the 8 mm allen head bolt.

Now that I have taken my bike apart I can see how that would work(great idea). The clymer manual I have just says to have one person push down on the forks while the other person loosens the 8mm allen bolt, Ya right!.

Okay so this is how it all happened: (leaving out unimportant details)

-Removed brake caliper, fender and wheel.

-Loosened cap bolts and tried to loosen the 8mm allen bolt(just spun)

-loosened the bolts on the triple tree and pulled only one fork out(one at a time).

-I can see what retiredgentleman is talking about now but at the time I could not figure out a way to get to the damper rod.

-ended up installing the spring and putting the cap back on and compressed the fork in a clamp(very carefully!), which allowed me to loosen the 8mm bolt on the bottom of the fork.

-after the inner tube of the fork was removed I removed the circlip and oil seal washer and basically the oil seal fell out(bad fit)

-cleaned everything up well and installed the new fork seal

-reversed the process with the clamp, I did not add oil(10-30) at this time, I saved that for right before I installed the fork.

-slid the fork back into place and tightened up the bolts on the triple tree.

-This will be much easier the next time I have to do it, especially using retiredgentlemans trick. It's a dirty process so make sure to cover your floors if you care about them.

One thing that really helped what the 8mm allen I used in my socket wrench, worked much better than a regular allen wrench

Sorry I really did not take to many photos(dirty hands), but I hope this description will help with the basic procedures with fork seal replacement.

oldbikenut

jayel wrote:

the thing is once you get started pulling down the front end, front wheel off, fender removed, ect. it's not that much harder to pull the trees and either re-grease the steering head ball bearings or replace with the tapered bearings, I drilled and tapped a zerk into the neck

I will be back into the steering head at a later time as I did not like the way it felt, so more parts to be ordered. I really like the idea of a zerk in the neck!

jayel

just look and make sure your neck doesn't have any holes going back into the frame my 74 didn't so your 78 probably won't either

oldbikenut

jayel wrote:

just look and make sure your neck doesn't have any holes going back into the frame my 74 didn't so your 78 probably won't either

I'll check on that.

Also I checked on ebay and mikesxs for the bearings and there looks to be some good options out there of the tapered bearings.

Xumi

Thanks for the step by step, OBN. I'll print it out when I get to mine (probably about 2 more weeks away.. grrr)

yamaman

Heres some more on this:

www.650rider.com/Forum...t=805.html

oldbikenut

Xumi wrote:

Thanks for the step by step, OBN. I'll print it out when I get to mine (probably about 2 more weeks away.. grrr)

No problem. I took a few pictures of the process but after reading retiredgentlemans post I think that is a much better alternative(not that my idea did not work) and that's the direction everyone should go. Thank you yamaman for posting the other thread showing a great picture of this most helpful jig!

I wrote the steps to replacing the forks seals late at night, so let me make sure to make a few things clear, Make sure to:

-I put my bike on the center stand and used a wood block under the front of the frame, to make the bike tilt back.

-loosen the cap bolts and lightly seat them before removing fork.

-once the 8mm bolt that holds the damper is removed, you can pull the inner tube out and at that point you can remove the serclip and washer holding the seal, make sure to take care as the serclip can fly far away if care is not taken!(don't ask me how I know).

-I recommend removing one fork at a time and after you do the first one the second will seem alot easier!

Please if someone thinks I missed something or wants to add to this, please do!

Xumi

Nice step-by-step.. I think I've got my plan. I've got the bike up, front wheel off, one fork drained and spring removed, going to make my trip to home depot for the threaded rod and nuts and PVC tomorrow, hopefully will get more time on it tomorrow night. Smile

I dunno if I'll be able to finish this weekend though, as I'm going to polish the forks while I've got everything apart, as well as grease the steering and do a full clean-up of the front end while I'm in there.

xsjohn

Don't change the fork seals if they don't leak.......... now on my 3rd fork teardown.......one is still leaking........... and they didn't leak before I changed them........... dagnabit...... I hate forks...... or at least beginning too......

xsjohn

Retiredgentleman

Using the threaded rod and nuts makes removing the bottom allen bolt as easy as pie. Now, removing the fork seal itself is a real pain. Just don't do what I did. First seals I put in upside down Embarassed

, but got it right the second time round. My seals are perfect now, with no leakage.

First seals I cut and pryed but it was a struggle. The second time I used a dremel tool to cut the seal and worked reasonably well.

I'd be interested to know if those hooked "seal removal" tools actually work well?

oldbikenut

Retiredgentleman wrote:

First seals I cut and pryed but it was a struggle. The second time I used a dremel tool to cut the seal and worked reasonably well.

I'd be interested to know if those hooked "seal removal" tools actually work well?

Another great idea! The PO I could tell had a hard time removing the old seals as evident by the noticable gouges and scratches in the seal area. Cutting it out with a dremel sounds like a great idea, just make sure to clean the fork good afterward!

Xumi, great idea to take care of everything while you got it apart!

Both my seals were very bad! And so far so good with the new seals. Here is a picture of my fork before I changed the seals.

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Yamaha xs650