Starting troubles

wade123 · New Member Joined: Jun 01, 2006 Posts: 8

I recently purchased an '82 XS 650 SJ, but it has become impossible to start.

Symptoms:

1) When I push the starter, the bike chugs away but doesn't want to catch.
2) I've tried to start it with the choke on and choke off, also with the petcock set to "on" and "pri" (what does "pri" mean, anyway?)
3) I can't get it to start with the kickstarter either.
4) When I turn on the ignition, the middle white headlight indicator in the instrument cluster lights up (but it turns off if I put on the high beam).
5) The turn signals don't work. I removed the front signals and wrapped electrical tape around the ends of the wires.
6) The battery seems to be holding its charge (I removed it for a couple of days and it still reads about 14 volts on the multimeter).
7) I checked to see if there is a short by touching the ground wire to the negative terminal while the positive terminal is attached and the ignition is off, but there was no spark.
Cool

There is plenty of gas in the tank.

Any ideas? I am new to motorcycles, the electrical system, etc. Thanks!!
-Wade

kingwj · Posted: June 9, 2006, 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

When was the last time it ran? Do you have spark? Put in new plugs if you do. If you don't then figure out why no spark.

Search the forum for other tips, there are a whole bunch of them

wade123 · New Member Joined: Jun 01, 2006 Posts: 8

Thanks for your reply.

It ran weekend before last. I don't believe I changed anything since then.

How do I check for spark?

wade123 · New Member Joined: Jun 01, 2006 Posts: 8

Aha:

www.nls.net/mp/volks/htm/spark.htm

"Definitely do a test for spark at the plugs. Remove one of the plug wires from a plug and hold it near grounded metal. (If the plug end has a long insulated shroud, you may have to improvise to get ground close enough to the end of the wire.) Have someone crank the engine while you watch for spark. If you get an 1/8" or so of spark, that should be enough to fire.

"If you don't have a helper, you can do it this way:
Pull the hi-tension lead out of the distributor cap and hold near ground.
With ignition On, turn the engine pulley CW past the TDC mark. You should get some kind of spark, although if you turn slowly the spark may be weak."

Will check en la manana.

jayel · Posted: June 9, 2006, 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

remove the sparkplugs and then plug them back into the plug wires lay them on a bare metal suface of the engine and kick it over or use e-start see if plugs are firing (spark should be blue/white) don't try this without base of plug (hex/threaded portion) grounded to engine you could damage your ignition system with plugs ungrounded

Phred · Posted: June 10, 2006, 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

The auto parts store (mc and lawnmower shops also) have a "spark tester" for sale (about $5.00). They usually have a terminal for the plug wire, a gap, and a clamp or alligator clip that you clip to a ground (a fin usually works well). This makes it easy to sit on the bike and kick it over (or you can use the starter) and still see the spark. You don't have the plug flopping off the engine and losing ground.

Not an essential tool, but one that makes the job much easier for minimal cash outlay.

wade123 · New Member Joined: Jun 01, 2006 Posts: 8

Checked spark by holding the spark plugs against the motor and pushing the starter.

Spark was visible, but barely. I replaced the spark plugs and it started right up!

Thanks for everybody's help!!!
-Wade

kingwj · Posted: June 11, 2006, 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

I got one right finally!!!!!

Do you have spark? Put in new plugs if you do.

wikkymaster · Posted: June 14, 2006, 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

hmm sometimes my electric starter wont start the bike either, what kind of spark plugs should i get, part number would really help, i have a 79 xs650f. maybe that will solve my problem.

kingwj · Posted: June 15, 2006, 6:35 am Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

NGK BP7ES is the recommended plug. Also make sure your battery is 100%.

wikkymaster · Posted: June 15, 2006, 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

ok i will try that, today i was riding and it kept stalling when i would give it gas and release the clutch, however it idled fine and revved fine. hopefully the spark plugs will help. do i need to gap them to a certain size?

kingwj · Posted: June 15, 2006, 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

0.028"-0.031"

They are usually gapped at the factory. Sounds like my bike when it is coming off the choke and not totally warmed up. Big dead spot off of idle until the heat gets in the motor and then it is fine. When you pull your plugs look at the ceramic and electrode. They should be light tan. White means lean and black is either rich or oil fouled. I'd also make sure the point gap and timing is spot on. It is amazing how much effect this has on motor performance and starting ease.

Good luck and let us know what you find out.

wikkymaster · Posted: June 15, 2006, 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

i dont know much about motorcycle engines, this is my first bike, can you explain timing and how to check it please, thanks, i got a battery charger today so im letting the battery fully charge hopefully that will help too, i drained the battery a few weeks ago and never charged it since, just letting th bike charge it by itself, probably not the best idea

jayel · Posted: June 16, 2006, 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

with a 82 model you should have the TCI (transistor control ignition) you won't need to set your timing, i would replace the plug wires and caps however - the PRI stands for prime to be used when the carbs are dry and the engine has'nt been started before - to check timing you need a strobe timing light - view is under small left side cover

mnstr4X4 · New Member Joined: Jan 25, 2006 Posts: 5

Jayel, is your pic there the proper timing for a boyer electronic ignition also? i think i have my in the stock points area over by the F!

jayel · Posted: June 16, 2006, 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

i suppose it would be, it fires at F at idle and advances to the left mark as the revs go up, on a points model this is done mechcanically on the boyer it's done electrically but it would still show up the same because what you are looking at with a strobe timing light is the moment of ignition when the crank, cam, pistons, and valves are in a certain posistion - if it's at F at idle does it advance when you rev it?

kingwj · Posted: June 16, 2006, 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

As I understand it timing is expressed as the number of degrees from top dead center (TDC)of the crankshaft where the spark plug fires. Typically at idle the timing is within a few degrees of TDC. As engine speed increases the spark plug is fired earlier from TDC so that the flame propogation will have time to occur as the piston is rising. This is the advance. As the XS engine spins anticlockwise you can see how much earlier the plug is firing from the photo a few notes above this one. Timing is set with a strobe or static light. However the XS has a separate ignition system for each cylinder. Instead of a cap and rotor setup the bike has 2 sets of points, 2 coils and 2 condensors. Each set of points must be set individually for the amount of gap or opening (dwell) and then in relationship to the crankshaft(timing). It's really quite simple in a complex sort of way.

wikkymaster · Posted: June 16, 2006, 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

well i put in the new plugs just now, and at first it was still idling with a "burp" kinda noise every few seconds, then i shut it off, started it back up and it was running fine without that burp, and idled way smoother then ever before, it had champion plugs in it before, not sure how old, but anyways i took it for a ride and it ran good, however sometimes usually while stopping the idle will drop to just above 1k rpms and hover there for a minute, until i get on the gas again, before it would almost die out, now with the new plugs it still did that twice but it accelerated from it just fine. anybody know the cause of this drop of rpms randomly?

jayel · Posted: June 16, 2006, 1:18 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

more than likely still dirt in the air/idle, pilot jet circuit

kingwj · Posted: June 16, 2006, 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

Seems like most any problem with a 650 can be fixed with 2 sparkplugs.

I am finding the more I run fuel through the carbs the better my bike is running. I did pull the carbs and clean them with carb spray but I suspect I missed a bit of varnish which is slowly being dissolved and opening everything up. I've put about 1500 miles on my bike since I got it and I am now very pleased with the performance, idle, etc. So I would suggest if you are not running OK, not lean or rich to just ride the thing and see if it does clear itself out.

grizld1 · Posted: June 17, 2006, 8:12 am Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

Wikky--there's no one cause for every symptom. Like the prior posts say, you have carb issues which may or may not resolve themselves with use. If your rpm drop occurs while you're braking to a stop, that's often caused when the float level's set too low, causing the fuel level to rise too high; when the front end dips under weight transfer in braking, the mix richens suddenly with the results you're getting. If things get worse instead of better and your new plugs start to foul, open the carbies and check float level. Manual spec. for float height is given as measured from the surface on the carb body on which the gasket seats, not from the gasket. If the gasket's adhering to the carb body and looks good, just compensate by subtracting 1 mm., which is the approximate gasket thickness, and measure from the gasket. While you're in there, clean 'em again; it's not unusual to have to go through these carbs two or three times before you get out all the garf that 2 or 3 decades of neglect have allowed to collect.

grizld1 · Posted: June 17, 2006, 8:24 am Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

mnstr4x4--the Boyer ignition should be dialed in to the advance mark with the engine rpm at around 4K, as per Boyer's install instructions. If your arms aren't long enough to reach the throttle while you strobe the marks, wrap a stout rubber band between the twistgrip and throttle housing to apply enough resistance to hold position briefly. It also helps to strap the bike down on a lift or block the wheels firmly so you don't wind up chasing it (or running from it) when it tries to hop around on the center stand.

wikkymaster · Posted: June 17, 2006, 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: Starting troubles

im just trying to sell it, hoping it runs good for whoever is test driving it then they can deal with the problems Smile

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