Pamcopete's electronic ignition

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

Thank you, Pete! Seems like every day you add something to the little bit I know. In about a hundred years, I'll probably know as much as you forgot. Cool

pumps · Posted: March 7, 2009, 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Pamcopete's electronic ignition

pamcopete wrote:

pumps,

Well, it gets a little more complicated.

From the Haynes manual, page 162, (28):

“The purpose of this system is to turn off the turn signal automatically after a period of TIME or DISTANCE. At very low speed, the signal will cancel after a distance of 164 yards has been covered. At high speeds the signal will cancel after a time of 10 seconds has elapsed. When traveling in the lower range of speeds the signal will cancel after a COMBINATION of both time and distance..

I wonder how they came up with 164 yards...???

pamcopete · Posted: March 7, 2009, 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Pamcopete's electronic ignition

pumps,

It's a soft conversion from metric...150 meters.

pumps · Posted: March 7, 2009, 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Pamcopete's electronic ignition

Thought it must be something like that. Part came today I hear from my son but I am at the station pulling a 24 hour overtime shift. I would rather be wrenching but being here the money (time and 1/2) ain't bad. It'll buy more PARTS! Shocked

pamcopete · Posted: March 7, 2009, 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Pamcopete's electronic ignition

pumps,

There is never enough money for parts... Confused

....gotta get your priorities straight...eating is optional! Cool

pumps · Posted: March 7, 2009, 8:58 pm Post subject: Re: Pamcopete's electronic ignition

I think by the time I am done I will have replaced almost everything on the bike.I'm learning though and a little at a time.Still cheaper than bike payments.

pumps

I have installed The PPI ( Pamco Pete Ignition- Shocked

) and completed it this evening. My bestest bike ridin' neighbor came over to assist and it went quite well. Got to use my new timing light the bride bought me for my birthday too... I noticed the left side fuel filter wasn't filling up all the way....and that my regulator seemed to be letting it charge too much..over 15.5 . I'm going to have to get the book out. Time for some petcock kits anyway and maybe do the regulator and rectifier mods too.

AND removed the turn signal canceller!

jayel

don't worry to much about the fuel filter filling all the way, they seem to come and go on doing that, once the bowl is full it stop filling until you run the engine, next time it may fill all the way or the other side may get a bubble, using clear lines you can see bubbles in the line and the fuel just flows around it .... yes set your regulator I turned mine down to 14 and haven't had to fill the battery electrolitic since

pamcopete

pumps,

Congratulations. You have now become one less target for the beer trucks by removing the cursed canceller. If you inadvertently leave the turn signal on, you might annoy the other drivers..... Rolling Eyes

....but if the damn thing cancels at the wrong time / place, you could be in a world of trouble.

Of course, you left me hanging here....so, you installed the "PPI"...did you push that little button on the right side controls? You know...the start button....and? Laughing

pumps

Yes of course, how do you suppose I got it timed? The initial setting was too far retarded but I got it set ok.. Um actually just now I tried to go out and make a movie but the media card on the camera was full while I tried (wife's camera) and I better not delete her stuff. I noticed more PARTS I needed...spent more with mike. My signals are droopy too. The more I look the more I need. Eventually I'll have it all done...I'll get my kid to be my camera man tomorrow.

Retiredgentleman

You're making good progress pumps. Yeah, just as jayel mentioned, air pockets in the inline filters is normal, I see them quite often.

The high voltage on the battery can also be due to a broken wire/connection to the regulator. If you lose the sensing voltage (brown wire) or the ground (black wire) the battery voltage will go high. I had a broken black wire going to the voltage regulator and was losing electrolyte before I noticed the lights were extra bright. That's when I decided to install a voltmeter on the bike, to catch any future failures.

Crab · Full Member Joined: Apr 29, 2008 Posts: 18

Pamcopete-your the man, 2 points.
I've got about 20 miles on Pamco's ignitions system, That I purchased thru Mikesxs. I needed to overhaul my entire 31 yr. old system, and figured in the long run Pamco's would be cheaper. It's simple, and it works great. My advice for anyone with the original point ignition system, quite fighting it and upgrade to Pamco's system, you'll be happy you did.. Crab

pamcopete

Crab,

Thanks.....happy that you're happy..... Cool

Just think of all those Saturday mornings this summer when you can be riding instead of screwing with the points.... Very Happy

pumps

St. Patricks Day here today. Lots of revelers and I think we have one of the largest parades in the country, reportedly 150,000 at the parade today.
Carefully I took the XS out on a shakedown cruise while keeping an eye out for imbibers of ye olde green spirits. It was 75-80 F . She ran like a champ. Starts easily too with the kicker. Rode about 30 miles around town.

Gmaan

Here is what I did with my coils. I did not want to cram it all under the tank so I put it in front of the battery

Retiredgentleman

After a long winters hibernation ( actually, a top end re-build) my engine has awakened and is now using the Pamco ignition. Easy to install, and engine started and running fine. Using my Accel supercoil ( 3.5 ohm primary), that I had previously used with my points ignition.I will continue with a .038" spark plug gap, while I put on some kms.

One thing I found out. The Pamco ignition and my timing light do not like to be together on the left side. With the timing light connected to the right plug lead, engine ran fine. Put the light on the left lead and the left cylinder only fired intermittantly, and engine running rough. Obviously some electrical interference between the systems, so I just won't do that again.
Its a very old timing light, but has always worked reliably for me. So, I'll just check timing from the right cylinder.

pumps

My timing light is a year or so old from sears and santa and it gave a little bit intermittent light on the left side but on the right it was fine. No interference on mine , either side.

pamcopete

RG and Pumps

The dual output coil prodices a positive voltage on one spark plug wire and a negative on the other. Most timing lights are designed to work with a negative voltage, because that is the standard voltage polarity in a "conventional" single output coil.

The clamp on most inductive coupled timing lights has a little arrow marked "plug" so you can clamp it on in the correct direction to match a negative wire. If you happen to clamp it on the positive wire, it will act eratically, or not at all, so you can either move the clamp to the opposite cylinder, or simply clamp it on the wire with the "plug" arrow pointing away from the spark plug, or swap the plug wires.

RG.....sounds like you have a really ancient timing light that makes actual contact with the spark plug and wire. The dual output coil does not have an internal ground refference that that type of light needs, and they will ground out one of the plugs. They were designed before the advent of dual output coils. So, there's kind of a paradox here. You should really get a "modern" inductive coupled style timing light to double check the timing, but with the PAMCO, you'll probably never use it again!! LOL

Why is a negative spark plug voltage the standard? The electrons are negative. Contrary to what we all think, the current actually flows from the negative to the positive. The tip of the spark plug is the hottest part of the spark plug, and heat accelerates the flow of electrons, so by making the tip of the plug a negative voltage, the electrons will jump the gap with a lower voltage. Or, to put it another way, the positive spark plug requires up to 40% higher voltage to jump the same gap. That's one of the reasons that dual output coils are all "high performance" high voltage coils.

Keep this phenomina in mind when you shop for exotic plugs like, iridium or platinum, because the ones that only have the exotic metal on the tip, really only work their best in one spark plug!

FORD has taken this theory to the extreme by supplying a different platinum spark plug for the positive and negative wires to cut costs.

You can buy dual plated spark plugs that have the the precious metal on both the tip and the ground electrode.

Way too early in the morning to be doing this stuff......

yamaman

Interesting Pete, I was aware of atomic particle transfer between the
electrode & tip though I just accepeted that & left it there! I wonder if Motocraft (or anyone else) makes an equivlant plug for us?

www.miracerros.com/mus...kplugs.htm

yamaman

Ok, started answering my own question. So yes an irridum tip will definatly work better on one side with a single coil, than the other. This advantage would only be in regards to longevity though & not performance (at least thats how I'm seeing it).

The flame will still be better with irridiums than conventional types due to the minute size of the centre electrode.
The ground electrode will probably suffer a slightly premature death as it's made of a lesser material!

Interesting to note, NGK don't recommend altering the gap on their irridiums due to the danger of breaking the centre electrode!

www.ngkspark.com.au/sp...eature.php

pamcopete

yamaman

Autolite makes a "double Platinum" plug, #APP3923 which has platinum on the tip and ground electrode which is suitable for the XS650 with a dual output coil. I used them last summer and was happy with the results, but I'm always switching plugs to test with my system and various coil and plug combinations.

The Autolite plug is a 5/8 hex, but it does have the screw off terminals if you have that type of plug cap.

pamcopete · Last edited by pamcopete on April 10, 2009, 11:54 am; edited 1 time in total

yamaman

The small diameter iridium tip will only work its best on the negative side because the idea of a small diameter electrode is to allow it to heat up and emit electrons more readily. That's the purpose of the exotic metal tip. Iridium and platinum can be heated to a higher temperature than copper, but they won't emit any electrons on the positive side of the coil. The idea is to concentrate a very narrow stream of electrons to produce a higher temperature of the spark for better ignition of the mixture.

If you look closely at the actual pattern of the spark, you can see the electrons eminating from the negaive tip and "spraying" to the larger grounded electrode. That same action is counterproductive going the other way because the pattern spreads out from the grounded electrode and then has to "target" a very small tip.

So, the principle advantage to Platinum or iridium tipped plugs in a dual output coil setup is prolonged tip life, and, as NGK claims, a self cleaning action due to the high temperature.

yamaman · Last edited by yamaman on April 10, 2009, 9:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Hmmm not how I'm reading it Pete, here is a cut from the NGK site I posted above:

This allows centre electrode diameters to reduce from 2.5mm using Nickel, to 0.6mm using Iridium or Platinum. The finer point means that once a spark forms, the flame kernel does not have a large mass of centre electrode that reduces absorption of heat and the flame shadow impeding the flame progress. This equates to a more complete burn that translates to:

Improved acceleration
Improved fuel consumption
Smoother idling

I'm sure there is merit in what your saying Pete, otherwise Ford would not have gone to the trouble of installing left & right bank plugs. Motocraft wouldn't have made the ambidexrous replacement plug.
It just seems to me, from what I'm reading that perhaps what your stating is secondary to the fact that a thinner centre electrode regardless of polarity, is more eficient than a larger.

pamcopete

yamaman

Well, are they suggesting that the action is the same regardless of the polarity? Think in terms of trying to fill a coke bottle with a hose. From inside the bottle, the resulting stream of water will be intense, but most of the water misses the target. Now, think about shaking up a bottle of coke and spraying it towards a large surface. All of the Coke will hit the larger surface.

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Yamaha xs650