Opinion: Best oil to use in engine!

zimme71 · Full Member Joined: Aug 06, 2008 Posts: 30

Well, it appears I'm burning a bit of oil. I just noticed it yesterday when I started my bike to leave work and blue smoke came out of the right muffler, but it quickly dissipated. So when I got home, I checked my oil level, and it looks as though it was only registering about 1/8" or so on the dipstick. So obviously I need to add oil (plugs look fine). So my question is twofold:
1. Best type of engine oil to use (1981 XS650 w/ 23k + miles)
2. How much oil do I need to add?
I bought the bike with just over 20k miles in late May, so I've put on a little over 3k miles in 3mos. I've read some post where folks are putting in regular car engine oil, and others are putting in diesel oil (btw, where can you purchase diesel oil?). I live in Minnesota, and hope to ride into November/October if that makes a difference on the oil weight. Your input and expertise is greatly appreciated!!

Retiredgentleman

This is very subjective, so get ready for many and varied opinions. The obvious choice is Motorcycle 20W50 Oil.(various brands). Don't use automotive oil that says "friction reduced" or similar because the additives may make your clutch slip. I use Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 because it makes my clutch happy. This brand is CI-4 and SJ rated which means it has a higher amount of ZDDP. ZDDP is good for reducing wear on engine internals.Buy this oil at Wal-mart.
Some brands of Diesel Oil have switched over to CJ and SM ratings which means they have a large reduction in ZDDP.
With your bike on the centre stand, oil level should be at the mid point between the 2 marks. Too high a level may cause excessive oil mist to come out of the crankcase breather.

weekendrider

I've found oil consumption goes up with the mileage. First 1K miles no usage. 1K-1500 miles I'll have to add some oil. I never go past 1500 for an oil change.
Castrol Motorcycle 20-50

rayf

Another related question, when you say the oil should be between the two marks...is that with the dipstick screwed in and seated or just sitting square on the engine case?

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

Just sitting on the case, NOT screwed in.

hercules · New Member Joined: Sep 12, 2008 Posts: 4

Cool I was wondering about this as well.

wesleyonoel · Full Member Joined: Oct 02, 2007 Posts: 60

It's true, the levels of ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) have been reduced in the latest engine oil formulas. The additive package is particularly important for internal combustion engines utilizing flat tappet cams. A combination of zinc and phosphorous, ZDDP is unique in that it bonds to the camshaft as a result of heat and friction and actually creates a sacrificial coating between the lobes and lifters (pushrod ends, valve stem tips, wrist pins and other parts also benefit from ZDDP). Levels of this additive have dropped from 1400 PPM to 1000 PPM in SL oils and further reduced to 800 PPM with the SM rated oils available today. The reduction was mandated by stricter government standards designed to prevent degradation of catalytic converters and oxygen sensors in todays vehicles. Indeed as retiredgentleman suggests, levels of ZDDP are higher in "C" rated oils (CJ-4, CI-4 and earlier ratings) which are designed for diesel engines. Be aware these "diesel" engine oils contain higher detergent levels which surround and suspend deposits that accumulate in the oil and hold them in suspension so much of it drains out when the oil is changed. However, these detergents will also stick to the inside of the engine and may result in sludge-like residue inside the engine. Since the engines of our beloved 650's utilize roller tappets, I'm not sure how important ZDDP levels are when considering longevity of cam followers in these engines - the nemesis of older vehicle engines utilizing flat tapped cams. Don't have a definitive answer about what kind of oil to use, but recognize the oils available today have changed significantly since our motorcycles were new. Various forms of ZDDP additives are available. Consult cam manufacturers for suggestions. Others suggest using "Racing Oil" as they contain higher levels of ZDDP. Again, as retiredgentleman suggests, you will get many and vaired suggestions on the topic. Sorry I don't have a good answer to the question, just a bunch of information to dig through and consider...........Wes

xsjohn

Been with this discussion for what seems like years.........haven't changed my opinion........Valvoline Racing oil....(VR1).......loaded with zinc and won't act like deisel oil and comes in 20-50..........but I only use 1 quart and the other quart Valvoline Premimum........too much zinc can make the clutch slip............

xsjohn

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

Rock Oil 20/50 seems to thin out when hot. Engine Seems to run warmer when I use this..

orrises V-Twin and Golden Film are my next tries will let you know how Golden Film fairs will try that first...

rsylvstr · Full Member Joined: Aug 09, 2008 Posts: 65

or you can use SLOB (Street Legal Oil Boost) to increase ZDDP.

gs1327 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Feb 20, 2007 Posts: 170

wesleyonoel wrote:

It's true, the levels of ZDDP (zinc dialkyldithiophosphate) have been reduced in the latest engine oil formulas. The additive package is particularly important for internal combustion engines utilizing flat tappet cams. A combination of zinc and phosphorous, ZDDP is unique in that it bonds to the camshaft as a result of heat and friction and actually creates a sacrificial coating between the lobes and lifters (pushrod ends, valve stem tips, wrist pins and other parts also benefit from ZDDP). Levels of this additive have dropped from 1400 PPM to 1000 PPM in SL oils and further reduced to 800 PPM with the SM rated oils available today. The reduction was mandated by stricter government standards designed to prevent degradation of catalytic converters and oxygen sensors in todays vehicles. Indeed as retiredgentleman suggests, levels of ZDDP are higher in "C" rated oils (CJ-4, CI-4 and earlier ratings) which are designed for diesel engines. Be aware these "diesel" engine oils contain higher detergent levels which surround and suspend deposits that accumulate in the oil and hold them in suspension so much of it drains out when the oil is changed. However, these detergents will also stick to the inside of the engine and may result in sludge-like residue inside the engine. Since the engines of our beloved 650's utilize roller tappets, I'm not sure how important ZDDP levels are when considering longevity of cam followers in these engines - the nemesis of older vehicle engines utilizing flat tapped cams. Don't have a definitive answer about what kind of oil to use, but recognize the oils available today have changed significantly since our motorcycles were new. Various forms of ZDDP additives are available. Consult cam manufacturers for suggestions. Others suggest using "Racing Oil" as they contain higher levels of ZDDP. Again, as retiredgentleman suggests, you will get many and vaired suggestions on the topic. Sorry I don't have a good answer to the question, just a bunch of information to dig through and consider...........Wes

I love these "what's the best oil" threads on any/all motorcycle forums.
Everyones an expert.
Roller Tappets??

blue900

I've put around 7000 miles per year on my 81 XS650SH commuting to work daily for 3 years.
I was running 20w50 Catrol GTX,
Then I read on the 650Central site 15w40 Diesel oil is the thing to use.
I also found on the tag on the backside of the plastic air filter cover of my bike:
SAE 20W/40 (above 5 C) Type SE
SAE 10W/30 (below 15 C)Type SE
I switched to Regular Rotella T 15W40
I finely got the big oil leaks fixed and switched to the Synthetic version.
I'm liking the Rotella T Synthetic 15w40 it is CJ-4 rated. It starts a lot better at 30 deg on the cold mornings that are about here in Idaho.
+ it cleaned off my dirty oil sight glass on the side of the case its now clean and clear.
I get it at Walmart.
Seems to be Working good for me in Idaho.

jojoaruba

I read somewhere that diesel oil is not good for the gears, but it sounds like lots of the experienced riders don't have a problem with it. Anybody have any other comments?

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

Guess Who Called Castrol Today!..LOL..

I spent 20 minutes on the phone to them having it all explained to me, and explaining my / our problems.

The issue appears to be the lack of proper filtration on our bikes. Basically put modern oils that can stand the performance of a bike engine of our types at 20/50 viscosities contain detergents that suspend contaminants so they can be cleaned effectively.

Classic Oils tend to have a lower API Rating related to engines age. They have less detergents and cause sludging which is good in an older car engine for instance with very basic filtration.

ike recommends SJ..which is for engines 2001 or later. That could be engines making approx 100bhp per litre of cubic capicity. For instance. Like our engines. Although I dont think it would be wise to go below SG.

Certain favoured classic oils used by the brit scene only rate SE which may be fine for an older car engine, but not for a twin carb air cooled bike engine.

The design problem is that Yamaha filters might suit sludging, but the pickup is actually in the sludge zone so to speak. However the filtration is not actually good enough for modern detergent oils. Although even our level of performance or the performance of a lightly modified XS650 demands we use this API level because oils with that API level all seem to have plenty of detergent!

I asked about using Deisel oils ...and Castrol felt this was entirely unsuitable as diesel engines are typically have lower RPM ranges..thats what they said, so dont shoot the messenger Smile

..its difficult to advise on grading therefore...

From what I can see from all this..the best thing to do ..is to use a modern high rated 20W50 Oil, like a V-Twin Oil but to upgrade the filtration with something like a side filter. The Heiden Tuning upgrade should be fine for this..

Its best to stay away from oils intended for car use as they may make the clutch slip as they arent designed for wet clutches.

rsylvstr · Full Member Joined: Aug 09, 2008 Posts: 65

thanks Jake68....put your flak and helmet on now LOL

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

swiiiishh...boom...incoming ....LOL...

No seriously guys..I am quite up for trying diesel oil...as I got a new oil pump now LOL..

Anyhow..I still think modern filtration will allow you to use high performance modern oils without having to worry about the detergents.

Though I have to admit, the guy at Castrol was right up for chewing my ear off Smile

LOL..

I called Morris too and their V Twin and Classic 20/50's dont have the performance of Castrol (their specs not mine)..

So far turning out best on numbers are ..

Rock Oil 20/50 SJ
Silkolene (the same)..
Procycle (new brand in the UK)..goes even higher...

Rock oil is no good in my view, goes to thin at high temps...

Still looking the best however is Mobil Super XHP 20/50..but its missing in action in the UK...

These are all mineral oils...

After 1000 miles on a new engine no reason for not using syth or semi synth, more modern formulas dont seem to require internal cleans or flushing ...they have the best high temp performance, but again, they really suspect crap well, and a decent filter is a good idea...

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

Now...

I've phone round a few more companies and people ...the general opinion concerning what Castrol told me about Diesel Oil, looks like it might be nonsense...

Diesel Oil is OK to use!..more research going on here about stability at high temperatures in air cooled motors..

This is great reading!

www.motorcycleanchor.c...c_oil.html

Personally I noticed that Mike recommends SJ...I have spent ages finding oils that are right in one way and wrong in others, I think reading the above SJ is wrong. I have used Rock Oil Strata SJ and its definately wrong. It thins way too much at high temperatures for one...although this may not be specifically aligned to any reformulation for later engines, its possibly a more general quality issue...

At the moment the V-Twin oils that are formulated for "metric" engines as well as US (seperate trannies) to work with wet clutches running in the same liquid..look the best for use in our bikes...based on my research..
for what its worth..

I still havent made a decision and bought 2.5 litres of the stuff yet though Smile

xs1961 · Last edited by xs1961 on September 19, 2008, 3:26 am; edited 1 time in total

Castrol GTX in mine for 30+ years...£9 a gallon..Never had a problem - but then I always change my oil at 1000-1200 intervals..Seems the XS's are very robust motors with agricultural tolerances so as long as you treat it right when cold & the oils thick at high temps you should be ok with any 20/50....

weekendrider

1000 - 12000 that should give you enough time to work an oil change in somewhere Wink

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

Yeah lol..12,000 mile oil change...nice...I WISH !!...

Anyhow...

What I have discovered more recently is the higher API ratings contain additives primarity designed as energy saving gizmo's that are not good for bike engines with wet clutches.

However, the V-Twin Oils that are advertised as OK with "metric V-Twins" are the ones that have the best specs to suit our engines.
They have a good heat tolerane and retain their thickness at our temperatures, they are designed to do that...
Whereas the car 20/50, have a higher additive content that is not so good with either the wet clutch, or the fact that they are either aimed at older engines with lower outputs or engines with inedequate filtration and therefore they will cause sludging...

So it appears to me after loads of time wasted that good quality Metric V-Twin Rated 20/50 is best in our engines and will last the longest without making either a sludgey mess and stand the operating temperatures that can arise without oil coolers and in hot climates..

I'm off to buy 5L of Morris' V-Twin 20w50 tomorrow Smile

Its funny how the more you learn, you correct yourself LOL..I hope nobody minds the conversation posting LOL..but I kinda contradicted my earlier posts the more I learnt.

I learnt that better API specs, specs aimed at controlling emissions and othe automotive conditions in every modern car engines arent always best for Classic, yet relatively high performance wet clutch bike engines..and that the API SF/SG is very well suited for our engines..

Or at least thats where, or should I say wear I am at now Smile

LOL..

If it blows up I'll let you know..

xs1961 · Last edited by xs1961 on September 19, 2008, 1:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

DAMN ! TYPO ! Embarassed

1200 MILES .....you gits ! Laughing

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

Dang it..

ike is obviously an expert I guess, he recommends Valvoline Racing Oil..I guess VR-1..which according to my research has far to many slippy additives to use in a bike engine..

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

xs1961 wrote:

DAMN ! TYPO ! Embarassed

1200 MILES you gits !

I was wondering why you had so many "spare" cranks LOL Smile

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

I guess everyone has an opinion of which is the best oil to use and why. I made a discovery today..

I went to buy my Morris 20/50 V Twin..and whilst buying it from a local auto store, I met a Ducati owner who runs a local car repair company, one of note I might add...He has always run Dukes ...They have an account to buy the car version of Morris lubes, so to get the best discount he ordered this for one of his bikes.

Before doing an oil change he took a temperature reading with the thermo they use for tuning motors, I guess its like the one John has, they changed to this V-Twin oil and the duke immediately ran 10 degree's cooler, and still does...

He said that the local duke guys swear by it..

I have a new oil pump, some new oil and gasket, but I am hoping that the bike runs quieter and cooler..and I think from what I hear this oil is the best available for 20/50 hot running air/oil motors like Dukes and XS650, Harleys as well..the best you can get according to these guys...

I asked Mike today what he would run and then checked it with other sources and he is recommending oil that would or should has far to much zinc in it. But I guess thats his bet..I dunno

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