No Start

twowheel · New Member Joined: Jan 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Location: CA

I am building a street tracker. I bought a 80 Special. I did not have the correct battery and wanted to see if it started so I put a battery I had around (from a Suzuki TL1000r) on it and it fired up and I ran it around the block.

Got the correct battery and put that on and went to start and there was a blown fuse. Replaced the fuse and it will not start. I press the start button and nothing. Could I have damaged something else when I used the different battery?

Thanks.

Taiji_Dat · Posted: February 6, 2006, 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: No Start

Hi Twowheel,
Don't see a issue using another 12v battery. I use my car battery to start my sitting bikes all the time and have no problems. There is an article posted in the forums on electrical you might find interesting.

Blown fuse from changing the battery? Did you short out the battery when you tightened up the terminals? That might have been the cause for the intial fuse popping but when you said you pressed the start button after replacing the fuse. Maybe you shorted out the switch. You can check that with a ohm meter. Check the voltage on the battery also.

One thing you did not mention is after you replaced the fuse and attempted to start the bike again, Did the fuse blow again? Did the starter crank? Please post more info and I am sure you will get a lot more indepth feedback..

PS, if that bike was sitting for some time and it has all the safety switches on it , check the connections on them too. One could of came loose or corroded and is acting like a kill switch.
David

twowheel · New Member Joined: Jan 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Location: CA

After I replaced the fuse it did not blow again. I started it tonight with the kickstarter. (pretty easy). The motor does not crank or make any sounds when I press the start button now. I will get a voltage meter to find out if there is any juice. My front headlight does not turn on either. It does not look to be a blown light so that is even more electrical problems. All the wiring in the headlight seems pretty tight and not carroded.

When I get the voltage meter I just put the sensor on the wire and it will give me a reading if it is conducting I assume. I have not used one. Any good deals out there on them? What should I pay for a decent one?

Where specifically are the "safety switches"?

Thanks.

Taiji_Dat · Posted: February 7, 2006, 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: No Start

Hi Twowheel,
Great!! you got it to run kickstarting it.. So we know it runs.

Ok, Lets trouble shoot with the easiest things first.. Please check to see if the battery has the correct charge. If it doesn't have enough juice, the starter selenoid will not engage the starter to turn your bike over. ( you may hear the starter selenoid click if the battery is low but you said you did not hear any sounds).
If your battery is old or doesnt hold a charge, you could use your car battery (12 volt) to jump the bike. BUT IF YOU DO PLEASE DISCONECT THE BIKE BATTERY AND JUST USE THE CABLES!. I say this because if the battery on the bike was shorted inside and you tried to jump batteries, it could explode!

Headlight:
When you kickstart the bike and get it running again, see if the highbeams work. It may just be the lowbeam is blown.
Do the tail lights come on when the bike is running? (They are on the same circuit as head lights from the ignition switch) If they do not come on check the ignition switch for corrosion.

Safety switches:
located on the clutch lever, trans > neutral switch, and kickstand.

Since you got the bike to run they seem to be ok.

You can get an Ohm meter at any auto parts store, walmart, radio shack. If you can afford an audible one get it.. It comes in handy!
directions on use come with them and are fairly straight foward.

Keep us posted!! I am sure others will join in with helpful information...
David

twowheel · New Member Joined: Jan 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Location: CA

I put in a new battery so I know it is not the problem.

When the bike is running the front headlight does not work on high or low beam. The tail lights work. The front headlight does not look blown and it looks in good condition.

For the safety switches: Clutch lever I can check, the neutral switch indicator works, kickstand I can check. Seems like it would not kick start if those were the issue?

Sounds like I need the OHM meter for a bad connection for the headlight and starter switch.

Taiji_Dat · Posted: February 7, 2006, 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: No Start

Hello Twowheel,
Ok, we are getting somewhere now.. Check the starter switch to see if its ok.

Check the wireing connector at the headlight to see if it is getting juice.

Yamaha installed something on there bikes called a Reserve lighting device. it's suppose to act as a safety device if the low beam blew the high would automatically come on. If this device fails neither light works.. I think the indicator light won't work also.
You can try unplugging this device and just connect the wires from the wireing harnesss together.
This device is located under the seat near the battery, It was gray for the 80's, black for early models. Unplug it (its a 9 pin plug) and looking at the wireing harness, use a short jumper to connect the blue/black wire to the blue /yellow wire and the headlights should come on.

Do you have a copy of the Clymer's service . repair . maintenance manual for the 650 twins? its got alot fo information on troubleshooting and testing using the ohm meter. They cost about $25 online.

Keep us posted,
David

grizld1 · Posted: February 8, 2006, 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: No Start

Twowheel, if your scoot is stock it has on it a nasty little device called a safety relay. The relay cuts out the lights while cranking, and when the engine fires it picks up an output signal from the alternator and cuts out power to the solenoid.

Here's a test. First, pull back the the rubber boots that cover the starter cable connections to your solenoid, and very carefully, without letting anything touch ground, connect those terminals with something heavy, like a pair of screwdrivers with well insulated handles. If the starter motor, starter motor cable, and solenoid battery cable are good, you'll get crank.

If that step checks, check the pushbutton by disconnecting the bullet connector on the blue-and-white wire into the solenoid. Ground the blue/white from the solenoid. If you get crank, your problem's the starter button or its lead.

If you don't get crank, use your ohm meter to check the button and lead anyway. Connect the meter with one probe on the blue/white and one probe grounded (the ignition should be off for this). You should get 0 ohms when you push the starter button.

Next unplug the bullet connector on the red/white solenoid lead from the safety relay and jump it to the red/white lead into the relay. Push the button. If you get crank, the safety relay's the culprit. If you don't, the problem's the solenoid.

Taiji_Dat · Posted: February 10, 2006, 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: No Start

Hi grizld1,
Twowheel said he had the bike running when he kicked started it, but the lights were still out. Wouldnt that safety relay be working if the bike was running? Unless the selenoid was shorted? Got me to thinkin more about it...
David

grizld1 · Posted: February 11, 2006, 12:43 am Post subject: Re: No Start

Nope, not necessarily. On the starter side (as opposed to the lighting side)of the safety relay, all it does is to kill power to the actuator side of the solenoid to prevent accidental button pushes from tearing up the starter gear train. It doesn't affect ability to kickstart and run the scoot at all. When the bike's running, the safety relay should open the red/white power lead to the solenoid, preventing it from actuating. If the relay sticks open, or if it closes but its contact is toast, you'll get the symptoms twowheels described. But the procedure I gave him will track down the issue with the starting system. Since both lighting and starter are acting up but he's got ignition, etc., I suspect the safety relay. But it's better to test than to and start buying stuff and plugging it in till you finally replace the right item--that gets expensive! Personally, I hate the damn thing--
I jumped the red/white solenoid lead and put a rocker switch in the blue/white pushbutton lead to cut out the pushbutton manually. My D-model has an on/off light switch, so I don't have to worry about that. I also bypassed the RLU and pitched it, mounted the solenoid under the seat, and redid the alternator with two insulated brushes and a switched power lead to the formerly grounded brush so's to use a late-model reg/rec, mounted under the batt.box--hated the idea of cluttering my aluminum batt. box with ugly, useless junk. That slimmed the harness down a tad too. Also replaced the starter motor and batt. ground cables with heavier stuff.

Taiji_Dat · Posted: February 11, 2006, 1:20 am Post subject: Re: No Start

Hello Grizld1,
Thanks for the great info!! Was stuck thinking it was the ignition switch wireing connections and it didn't sink in, > its a "relay". lol

Waitin to hear twowheels is back on the road......
David

twowheel · New Member Joined: Jan 28, 2006 Posts: 6 Location: CA

I bought the OHM meter tonight and it has all of these numbers and things I have no idea what they are? What setting should I turn the dial in order to test for all of these issues? I got a Digital Multimeter, Powerbuilt Brand from Kragen part #648349

And I have to get a stupid super mini screw driver to put in the battery!

grizld1 · Posted: February 11, 2006, 10:19 am Post subject: Re: No Start

OK--the symbol for ohms is the Greek letter omega--looks like a horseshoe with the open end down. You use the ohm scales to find out if there's resistance where it should or should not be, or if there's more or less resistance than oughtta be there. When no current at all is passing, resistance (ohms) is said to be infinite (symbolized by a sideways figure-eight);refer to the manual on your meter to find out how that's represented on the digital readout. When there's no resistance to current, it's "0". You'll also see a number of settings under "DCV;" those are your DC voltage scales. You'll get the most accurate readings by using the lowest scale that's appropriate for the job. Don't put the tester on a wire that's actively getting power through it with your tester on an ohm setting; you'll blow its little fuse. You'll notice some of the scales are marked "K;" K=kilo=1,000; a 1K scale on the ohm settings means the range is graduated for 1,000 ohm units. Your readout on a digital tells you what the unit's reading, and doesn't have to be tweaked to adjust for the scale setting, but the smaller the range the better, so long as you don't exceed the range. You'll also have millivolt ranges on the DCV scales; anything you hook up to in your XS harness will exceed that range. For voltage readings you'll probably have a 50VDC setting, and that or anything above 15VDC is what to use.

Before you hook that puppy up you have to know what your wire is supposed to be doing. If you don't have a manual with a wiring diagram, this would be a great time to get one. The reserve lighting unit is the cube-shaped plastic item under your seat. The solenoid is the item with two heavy cables on large terminals and smaller wires in a plastic plug, under your right frame cover. The safety relay is the two-humped metal covered unit under the same frame cover. Work the steps David and I gave you; it'll be easier than it looks to you right now. If those steps don't locate the problems, don't worry; it just means we'll have to proceed a little farther down the list of likely suspects. Let us know your results.

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