First to Neutral

opsoff3000 · Full Member Joined: Mar 24, 2008 Posts: 31

Does anyone know why I'm having trouble shifting in a stoped position from first to neutral? I could take a hammer and wack it and it still won't budge from first to neutral when I'm stopped. What the heck!! It's okay when I'm rolling along shifting up and then back down again. But when it's stopped I can't get it to neutral which means I can't take my hand off of the clutch. Anyone know what I can do? 8000 mi/81S

kingwj · Posted: April 18, 2008, 9:05 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

I replaced the needle bearings behind the clutch basket and it helped quite a bit. I still try to find neutral before coming to a stop whenever possible. MikeXS has the bearings.

opsoff3000 · Full Member Joined: Mar 24, 2008 Posts: 31

Hey King,
How come my repair manual says nothing about a clutch basket. Do you mean the clutch plate and whch are the needle bearings?

grizld1 · Posted: April 18, 2008, 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

Careful cable routing and clutch adjustment can help. Also helps to engage the clutch partway and prod the shifter a little as you declutch again, nudging into neutral as the load's relieved. The clutch basket's the outer part of the clutch assembly into which everything else fits. Inside it is the clutch hub on which the plates are mounted. After you remove the clutch hub, you'll see a washer with 25 mm ID, 50 mm OD, 2 mm thick. Behind that is the needle bearing (flat disc with needle rollers in it). As King says, Mike's upgrade bearing makes a big difference.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

I didn't find that. It made NO DIFFERENCE at all. But he got my $15 so there was a difference in the thickness of my wallet. The new bearing did squat.

In my opinion (they're like assholes, everyone has one), it's a design flaw. The pushrod barely moves enough on a new bike to separate the plates. Now, 30 years later, with a bit of wear in all the components ...... well, we have clutch problems.

Yes, cable routing, careful adjustment, and all that jazz is important but it can't compensate for an inherently bad design. The clutch works but it will never be like the ones on new bikes. This is the last "hurtle" I have yet to solve on my 650. I'm not giving up yet. I've tried ALL the suggestions I've seen on these lists. Some helped, some were bull. I'm ready to delve deeper, into the shift drum and stuff. But this is a big (irreversible) step. If I start grinding that stuff down, there's no turning back.

I'm just surprised, not only about this clutch issue, but about the whole 650 in general. This bike has been around for 30+ years. You would think that all that could be known would be by now. When I got mine like 5 years ago and embarked on the learning curve, there were voids. Thanks to lists like this, I learned much ........ but I learned things on my own, things I thought should be common knowledge. Anyway, I've strayed off topic here, thanks for listening.

Cooltouch · Posted: April 19, 2008, 12:30 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

I couldn't agree more with 5twins. I have the new bearing and spacer that Mikes sells and I installed them exactly the way he shows at his site, and it made no difference with my bike either.

I have to readjust my clutch about every fifty miles or so. The tip that he offered about turning the adjustment screw all the way in at the lever helped, though. That way, when I'm out riding and I feel it becoming difficult to get into neutral, at the next stop light, I'll add some slack to the cable. I've actually gotten about 100 miles between adjustments, since doing this.

As many times as I've had the clutch out of my bike, I've come to understand pretty well the way it works. The amount of actuation is the problem -- that is, how far the disks open up. The stock worm gear configuration doesn't allow for enough release movement, even the new improved one that Mikes sells with the second hole. In order to improve actuation to the point it would work properly, the worm would have to have a steeper ramp, making an already stiff clutch pull unworkable for most folks.

I have read here and elsewhere on the net of folks who have converted their machines over to using a hydraulic clutch. It appears to be an easy enough adaptation to make, and I intend to pursue this further. It also appears to be the only practicable way we can get the sort of actuation we will need to solve this problem once and for all.

Best,

ichael

xsjohn · Posted: April 19, 2008, 7:31 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

8 years ago I opened the handle about a 1/2 to 3/4 or an inch more to give the whole activation thing more travel and it made the clutch livable....don't even think about the clutch except that it slips now and I have to scratch up the steelplates again....and I have small hands and it has been no problem for me reaching a bit more......mentioned it numeroius times and no one has ever commented on it so I guess no one tried it......slap palm of hand on forehead.....more travel only makes since.......and the total cost was "nothing".......

xsjohn

Cooltouch · Posted: April 19, 2008, 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

XSJohn,

Could you explain in a little more detail what you mean when you state that you "opened the handle about a 1/2 to 3/4 or an inch more"? What, did you modify the stop at the clutch perch so the lever would extend outward further?

Best,

ichael

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

I think John means that if you bend the clutch lever AWAY from the handle bar just a bit, you get a longer pull on the cable. Within reason, a longer pull on the cable puts more freeplay between the clutch plates, so they won't drag as much.

xsjohn · Posted: April 19, 2008, 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

Or file on the perch or handle so it opens more.....bend it if you dont break it....and if you do it's only a lever...finally some have at least listened to my......more chutch activation scheem.....doesn't solve all the problems but it does help.......if you have big hands then you have even more possibilities.....and still free too....

xsjohn

mlcarter815 · Full Member Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 64

I had to bend my clutch lever out some b/c I put on some new Kuryakyn ISO Grips that are a full-siz grip like what you would find on a harley, but they fit a small bar.

xsjohn · Posted: April 19, 2008, 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

Harleys do need bigger grips......makes you feel like you go your moneys worth.....plus they need a bigger bar to be able to hog them around without bending them......wish I was that strong anyway......xsjohn

royfisk · Posted: April 19, 2008, 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

The only reason Harley uses bigger grips is because they cant win a race no matter what they do. And throttle response isnt a issue so throttle reaction times dont matter. bigger grip takes longer to go from closed throttle to wide open throttle due to the outside circumfrance. Someone told me they get a tax break for useing them safty thing you know so mayby.

jayel · Posted: April 19, 2008, 9:39 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

"bigger grip takes longer to go from closed throttle to wide open throttle due to the outside circumfrance"

not true, altho' it does pulls more of the cable for the same distance turned, remember pi, 7/8 bar x 3.14 = .875" x 3.14 = 2.7475, 1" x 3.14 = 3.14
3.14 - 2.7475 = .3925 so if you open to full throttle the larger dia. will have pulled more cable but it doesn't make any difference in this application because one revolution is one revolution no matter the diameter, I'm starting to think you don't like Harleys, roy lol

jayel, XLH1100 owner, (big grips for manly men)

royfisk · Posted: April 20, 2008, 6:26 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

jayel wrote:

"bigger grip takes longer to go from closed throttle to wide open throttle due to the outside circumfrance"

not true, altho' it does pulls more of the cable for the same distance turned, remember pi, 7/8 bar x 3.14 = .875" x 3.14 = 2.7475, 1" x 3.14 = 3.14
3.14 - 2.7475 = .3925 so if you open to full throttle the larger dia. will have pulled more cable but it doesn't make any difference in this application because one revolution is one revolution no matter the diameter, I'm starting to think you don't like Harleys, roy lol

jayel, XLH1100 owner, (big grips for manly men)

is true takes more roll of your hand to reach full throttle just like if you push a small wheel one revolution and a larger wheel one revolution the larger wheel will go a longer distance. Harley davidson died with the shovelhead everything else is just another metric cruizer . been there done that. company was dead in the 70's and the only thing that kept them alive was the wannabe t shirt buyers. How did the motor company treat the tshirt manufacturers? sued them in the 80's. They still to this day cant build a sport bike. tried like hell best they could come up with is the buell? Thats a joke. Yes it looks good, handles fair , stops excellent, still has harley type engine problems. Chasis breaks. A young lad I know whom when was 14 see one, started working doing odd jobs and what not, anyhow thats a rare thing these days teenagers working, but this kid saved and saved, at 19 he paid cash for his first new motorcycle. A buell lightning. At the dealer there were posters everywhere saying the best wheelieing machine on the planet. one month later the bike was in the shop with broken frame, muffler etc. harley davidson told him he was abuseing the bike by wheelieing it. And if it came into there shop again they would void his warranty. He immediately tradded it for a suzuki tl1000 SUPERBIKE. Guess what the tl stayed together, and would wheelie just as well.

xsjohn · Posted: April 20, 2008, 10:33 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

Easy to change to a Quicker Throttle........just be careful to heat it correctly or you can break it.....no more twisting your brains out.......

...xsjohn

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

royfisk -- I gotta argue with you. A quarter turn is a quarter turn no matter how big the wheel is. Try this:

Take a compass and draw a eight-inch (diameter) circle on a sheet of typing paper. Then, on another sheet of typing paper, draw a two-inch (diameter) circle. Cut both circles free of the paper. With a pencil, make one hash mark at the outer edge of each circle.

Next, stick your pencil through the center of the smaller circle. Roll it so the hash mark at the edge points straight away from you. Then, grasp the pencil in your fist like it was a throttle, and roll your wrist back until the hash mark points straight up (that's a quarter turn from straight away). Now do the same thing with the big circle. From hash mark straight away to hash mark straight up is a quarter turn and your wrist doesn't roll any farther to achieve it.

The same is true of your motorcycle throttle. A quarter turn of the big throttle pulls more cable than a quarter turn of the small throttle, but there's no difference in how far you have to twist your wrist.

jayel · Posted: April 20, 2008, 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

"a small wheel one revolution and a larger wheel one revolution the larger wheel will go a longer distance"
yes, on outside dia. but from the center point a 1/4 turn is a 1/4 turn don't even have to cut out jimmys circles, draw them in the center turn the page a 1/4 turn, both circles turn the same 1/4 turn

royfisk · Posted: April 20, 2008, 8:25 pm Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

It's because there's only 360 degrees in any circle, no matter how big the circle is. 1/4 of 360 is 90 degrees.

I mean I really like the "Yo momma so fat" jokes. The one says that "Yo momma so fat that when she turns all the way around they throw her a 'welcome home' party!"

And that's the joke d'ya see? Fat momma, if she's light on her feet (as many are), can turn around just as quickly as a skinny momma because, no matter how fat she is, she doesn't have to turn one inch farther than the skinny momma does. And if fat momma's belly button has to travel farther (as it does), it also travels faster because it covers more linear distance than the skinny person's belly button in the same amount of time.

But then there's Wile E. Coyote. I don't now enough math and physics to explain Wile E. Coyote. Nobody does.

xsjohn · Posted: April 21, 2008, 9:08 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

No one even commented on my way to make a quicker throttle.......it is really neat on these little 650's......get to the power quick instead of all that twisting........easy to break though if not heated right.....

xsjohn

royfisk · Posted: April 21, 2008, 9:31 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

yea its the outside circumferance which is bigger on larger grips and requireing more hand movement to reach 1/4 throttle, a smaller circumferance requires less to reach 1/4 throttle. Any how its the same ole, harleys still suck, everything from your pocketbook to raceing.

jayel · Posted: April 21, 2008, 10:21 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

and how many Grand National Championships has Harley won over the years? Yamaha? but if you want total wins over all we would all be riding Moto Guzzis -- doesn't really matter, apples and oranges

royfisk · Posted: April 21, 2008, 10:32 am Post subject: Re: First to Neutral

how many wins since 1968 for harley. Granted they are has beens. lets focus ama race results from 1968 to 1975 cause harley never won a road race after loudon in 72. yamaha many with what xs-650. To this day harley hasnt won one national road race since 72. yamaha many many many. I have researched this. Betwen 68 and 75 yamaha was the bike to beat. Guzzis are bullet proof and my dad sold all his harleys years ago and went to guzzi and has never looked back since. Personally i dont like shaft bikes. If we are going to go back to the beginning of time when a harley cost less then a grand to buy, for racing results yep your right they did win alot, but lets face it today you pay 10,000.00 plus for a slug.

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