Oil Observation

blue900 · Posted: April 8, 2008, 8:06 pm Post subject: Oil Observation

As I'm getting my bike ready to ride, I've done more reading and have decided to change to a different motor oil. I was using Castrol GTX 20w-50. My Brother inlaw has used this in his 500 dirt bike since new 15-20years old.
3 days ago I change the oil to Rotella T 15w-40.
I Just noticed something interesting. I have rode it maybe 10-15 miles total, today the sight glass on the side of the case is 98 % clean and Clear! Just a little stain on the top edge is left.
I am shocked, as its has always been dark gray you could tell it was glass but I thought it need cleaned or replaced. I was thinking about ordering a new one.
Wow must be good stuff.

weekendrider · Posted: April 9, 2008, 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

And some who have a way bunch more experience than I say it helps with slipping clutchs also. I don't care to have a bunch of containers to throw away so use Rotella (5 gal buckets) in everything from the Massey to the Metro. Never had a vehicle/motor fail with it.

royfisk · Posted: April 9, 2008, 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

detergents, personally I use mobil fleet oil 15-40. But what you are seeing is how differant detergents work. Remember one thing, get the bike up to operating temperature, drain the oil, and clean your screens one more time. Why, Because that oil not only cleaned the site glass like that but everything else in the engine and that stuff is floating around in your oil now going through your oil pump rockers, rings and everything else. I havent used Rotella personally, but my father told me just a week ago he is useing it in his guzzi and likes it. He is the one who taught me bikes back in the 60's and 70's. He had a shop for a long time since the 50's so I respect his opinion. But I would certainly do another oc, just to get all the sludge from the cleaning out, and clean the screens with carb cleanner even if they look clean.

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

Five bazillion truckers just CAN'T be wrong. The trucking industry runs on Rotella T 15/40. I'll stick with 20/50 GTX myself because I've always had good luck with it and if it ain't broke, I don't fix it.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Question - how often are you guys cleaning out the lower sump screen on the bike? Not the side screen/filter - the one you access from under the bike?

And if you are doing it often - do you seal the gasket with gasket sealer each time?

I replaced mine last year with the new - non-rip design - but I hadn't planned on cleaning that screen at each oil change - just the side one. (I am using the heat-sink - filter Performance re-fit from MikesXS).

Jim

royfisk · Posted: April 10, 2008, 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

every oil change i always clean the screen and no sealer

royfisk · Posted: April 10, 2008, 5:29 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

Sorry i do keep gaskets in stock in case I do have a problam but usually dont.

weekendrider · Posted: April 10, 2008, 6:43 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

Isn't the sump filter where your going to find the plastic from the front cam chain guide. If it starts coming apart.

jimdi maybe I should, but I don't ckeck the sump filter every oil change.
So far being careful I've only had to change the gasket once.

xsjohn · Posted: April 10, 2008, 6:52 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

54,000 now on the original sump filter.....just clean with carb spray and epoxy over the place where they all fail...the high velocity side ..and what's left of the filter is plenty big for the little bit of oil that is required to pass through it.......l

xsjohn

royfisk · Posted: April 10, 2008, 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

weeekndrider; yes, that is why i check it every time, It lets you know what is happening.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Ok I think John is saying after he fixed it - He never bothers to check it -
And roy is saying he checks it at every oil change??????

royfisk · Posted: April 10, 2008, 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

I dont think that is what john is saying, he just added that they can be repaired.

xsjohn · Posted: April 10, 2008, 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

Once the place that they all seem to fail is covered with epoxy the chance of it failing again is greatly reduced....that was 8 years ago and also 40 thousand miles ago.....and it is a big filter ....and how big does it need to be to allow the little bit of oil that creeps through these things with it's tiny oil pump amd being ball bearing an all...with 3 lbs o oil pressure at cruise and maybe 12 lbs at wot.....and check the aperature on the field side of the oil pump and see how small that is....I chose to fix the high velocity damage and spend the money on beer and cigs so I can also afford the internet .....so I can stay tuned to this circus.....and offer my BS also......pufffff......pufffff.....swilllll.....swilll..I'm learning.....no that's not crack......may need some though.....being in my second middle aged chrisis and alll..........just wait till I post pics of me on my bike with my matching speedo......

All in fun guys......just trying to make lite of our motorcyle addition........and have some fun........can't find anything else to fix so I have resorted back to the A hole that I really am..........

xsjohn

weekendrider · Posted: April 10, 2008, 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

For some reason on the 79 standard I have to remove the side stand to get the sump filter on and off. But on the 83 I don't. Anyone else notice this?
jimdi alot of posters have noted the front guide has a lifespan of around 20,000 miles so I guess if your getting close it's more important than if you had just replaced it.

While on the subject of oil changing. Do you drop both plugs every time?
I don't have a particular reason just do it. But it takes more oil than the 2000 cc to refill. So I figured the "periodical change for 2000 cc" on the case was just draining crankcase and not the transmission.

xsjohn · Posted: April 10, 2008, 11:05 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

The front guides were older plastic...hopefully the newer ones are better and bonded on better and don't get so brittle with age.....the chain in front is only indented slightly back but there shouldn't be a real good reason for it to fail so quickly.........but there is more tight chain stress there when it pulls .....changed mine 22 thousand miles ago and the adjustment is a lot less frequent now than the first factory go around......I did lay the new did chain out on a board and with a wood block and some 180 then 220 smoothed the outer surface where it rides on the guides...and the link to match chain thickness.....time will tell if I wasted my time but I have passed the 22 thou with the new mikes chain and guides without very many adjustments.........real pain to pull it down just for that and interupt all the other good things..........and all the worry about all that....

john

bulldog1980 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 28, 2007 Posts: 175

I finally got ready to work on the bike again (even with Wifes permission) and the tornado sirens went off!!! I was gonna change oil and try getting her started again... I just have a cheap motorcycle oil from Autozone.. I take it I should step that up to something different like Rotella or GTX? Also anyone used mikes oil filter/cooler?

weekendrider · Posted: April 11, 2008, 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

bulldog1980 wrote:

Also anyone used mikes oil filter/cooler?

There have been a couple of threads/posts on it. You might also want to read the threads on xsjohns oil cooling system. Search oil cooler or posts by the master of mock-up and mayor of Mocksville "xsjohn".

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

Believe it or not, the Wal Mart brand of 20-50 is pretty good. I've been running it for several thousand miles now and it seems pretty nice. The clutch likes it. I tried it on the recommendations of some other list posters so I'm not alone in feeling that it works well.

bulldog1980 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 28, 2007 Posts: 175

thankyou both weekendrider and 5twins I do appreciate the input... I asked my pops and he just smiled at me as he sat on his Victory kingpin and said find your own brand and don't be cheap... so it is nice to know if i hit the local wal-mart i don't have to feel bad about the oil...

drifter · Posted: April 11, 2008, 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

I've run Wal-Mart oil in the last 4 bikes I've owned and haven't had any problems at all with it.

royfisk · Posted: April 11, 2008, 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

Walmart oil is better then what was available when the bikes were new. But are they petroleum based or tar based? Most are tar based and that is what keeps the price down. When you get 15,000 miles on the bike tear her down and let me know about the sludge thats in there. Some people use quaker state too and have you ever seene the interns on a qs engine? I have, and I also seen up to one inch of tar stuck to the valve cover. But only time will prove that.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

First of all a Big Thanks to Roy and the others who insisted I check my sump filter for debris at each oil change - turned out I discovered that the "new longer lasting design" of these sumps is no better than the old stye ones....

OK So I bought one of those "new" Oil Sump Screen Filters with the "New and Upgraded design with perforated metal to back up the brass screen filtering element" Thinking "Hey it's the last sump filter I would ever have to buy."

WRONG - This new design blew a hole just as fast as the old design - just in a different place. (Mine went in less than 1 Year) (Broke at #1)

So rather than waste another $25-$50 on another one that will get a hole in it -- I broke out the JB weld - and modified the weak spots myself.

The Rip in mine - happened right at the end of the filter that comes to a point (#1) - the screen just opened up like a slot - and sure enough - the factory glue had let go of the screen on the 45 degree angled face. So - I JB Welded it back together.

The glue they use on these sump filters isn't worth a shoot - and lets the brass screening break loose from the frame - so I inspected every place the screen was glued to the frame and reinforced the factory glue with JB Weld at Key places (#1-#8) - namely at the corners & bends - along open areas - and where the screen met the magnets or spanned areas without the metal backing.
HEY! I thought this new design had all metal backing??? - (well it doesn't there are open areas.) (#2 shows one un-reinforced area)

Basically - I reinforced all the areas where I could anticipate a FUTURE failure - and tried to head it off!

I was careful not to cover too much of the screen with JB weld - kept it right where the screen meets the frame and just over the rip - I left PLENTY of open surface area for oil to pass through - I just wanted to Beef UP the factory glue job and seams.

LET IT DRY FOR 24 HOURS

I'm not claiming mine is bullet proof - but before you spend money for a rip proof design that rips - you might want to invest $5 in some JB weld.

If Not You'll be sucking dirty oil.

And yes I check - JD is gas and oil proof according to their web site.

royfisk · Posted: April 12, 2008, 7:33 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Observation

looks about right. That whole system sucks anthow. I figure I will wait for the underwood technologies unit to come out. Now everyone knows why they had 2 filters, but it doesnt help the pump much does it? Really bad design, If you wheelie alot and are capable of riding them out you can starve your engine of oil. Fill the trainny right up and starve the engine. Looks like everything is clean.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Yeh - How Ironic - checking the sump for signs of engine failure - and find out is the sump that failed.

I definately don't understand the design of the "new and improved" sump - It's like they went 80% of the way and didn't finish the job.

Their whole sales pitch was the metal reinforcement behind the brass screen to prevent "blow through" holes.

If you look at the photo closely you can see at #2 that they didn't put metal backing behind the screen - for about 3/4". Why the heck not?

Also what is with the cheap glue they used?

1 year of life is no better than the old style.

Hopefully by glueing it the right way - it will last longer.

Thanks for the tip - I won't have checked it. I was going to ride along just assuming the "new design" would last for years.

I wouldn't even WASTE my money on another filter - It will just fail in a year as well - glueing is the only way to go.

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