Wont crank, very hard to kick over, what can it be.

Srinath

OK this bike ran and ran fine 2 weeks ago. It didn't smoke and I even tried to ride it only to have it run 20 ft and the chain came off. That was when the chain was too long, I have hence fixed it, but it still wont start.

It got harder and harder to crank by starter, but it turns over slowly with the starter.
Now kicking it also is hard and tight feeling.

I removed the parts under the little cover under the countershaft and it still wont kick over easy.

In the past when it used to crank, it would make a grinding noise every other time almost.

Is a badly worn Starter clutch gear likely to cause both these problems.
I removed the right side and its all pretty nice, though I am yet to pull that gear from under the clutch backet.

Thanks in advance.
Cool.
Srinath.

yamaman

Probably broke a ring when you de-seized it.

Srinath

It ran well ... very well after which I only did 2 things.
Put on a chain and put right exhaust valve gasket on. It actually ran even after that just stalled before I test rode it. It never smoked or made any weird noises.
I am thinking it somehow is related to the idler gear which I will pull tommorow.
I guess till tommorow I have to hold on to my patience.
Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn

Maybe the compression has returned to normal.......these 80+ models have 8.7-1 CR and are right feisty....check compression..throttle WO....

also 20/50 in the winter makes the guite stiff on cold starts.......15/40 Rotella T might be a better choice in the winter..........walmart...

xsjohn

Srinath

xsjohn wrote:

Maybe the compression has returned to normal.......these 80+ models have 8.7-1 CR and are right feisty....check compression..throttle WO....

also 20/50 in the winter makes the guite stiff on cold starts.......15/40 Rotella T might be a better choice in the winter..........walmart...

xsjohn

OK I will try kicking it without the plugs in first thing tommorow.
Now if its easier then that would imply the starter is dead now wont it. Cos that should be able to spin it in any event as long as its not high compression right.

Anyway I will try that and post back. Its running 10W40 delvac I think. Its fresh and only 10-15 mins of idling on it. I drained it to pull the case covers off. Filters clean too. Not that I expected otherwise.

Cool.
Srinath.

yamaman

As you've already been advised, the starters on these are usually fine, it's mostly the #4 gear or the spring clip that gives all the grief.

The kick starter drives the clutch to start the engine, so the clutch must be engaged for it to work.

The electric leg direct drives (well almost direct) the crank, so the two are not really similar........oh I'm falling asleep, goodnight

xsjohn

Better just be counting those sheep............ Laughing

Srinath

OK the plot thickens.
The spark plugs out method, it kicked easy. Sorta like expected.
I pulled the starter off and found corroded terminal where the solenoid wire bolts in.
Then in an attempt to remove it, I ruined the thing.
Then I got it out and put my other starter on.
Then I tried to start it. It cranked better but no start.
Then I checked for spark, didn't get any. Pulled off the ignition coil, reversed its direction (wires reach better with it pointing to the back. Then I checked and I had spark.
Then I tried to start it several times to no avail.
Then I kicked it and it started. Woweee ... ran fine but I had to shut it off cos the tank was off it. So It died in ~10 seconds and I didn't bother revving it to keep it running.
Then I put tank on and tried to start it and many tires and nothing. By now its got this starter going weak as well and the battery is also anaemic.
10 mins later I kick it back to life and it runs ... I run it for nearly 10 mins. It runs fine, no extra noises, no smoke nothing.
I then shut it off to put the gear lever and left side cover on. That takes 3 mins.
Then it wont start, battery or starter or both are too dead to spin it, and worse yet, kick starter when I get it in the kicking position and where it is engaging to the clutch ... its not turning past that, like its hit a wall. Bike is still pretty hot to touch and it will not spin at all now.

Anyone have an idea why ?
TIA guys, you been great.
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath

Is it possible that I dont have oil supply to the cylinder walls and its heat locking, though I shut it off and it didn't die after the last time.

XSjohn: You have posted about this before but, I am pretty sure I am not getting lube washout from a rich mix, but what are the symptoms of that ? I have wet plugs when trying to start and it doesn't.

Something is preventing it from turning over both with starter and with kick starter Just wondering what it could be.

Tommorow I guess I'd check again what its doing with out the plugs in, check with crank and kick, and go on from there.

Cool.
Srinath.

yamaman

These bikes will not start with a less than perfect battery, especially if you use the electric leg. The volts drop too low for the TCI to operate

gordo

No word on the compression test. pull the plug's again & do the compression test.If it seams low, squirt a little oil( engine oil) in the sparkplug holes & retest. If it gets significantly better, you probably got a ring issue. If it's a top ring, will not nessisarily smoke or be real noisy.
If, like you stated, it only turn's over so far then stop's, something is jamming it. Try turning it over by hand, with a 17mm socket on the rotor nut.If it jam's, rotate it backward's, taking note that if it jam's again going the reverse way, something inside is broke. Good luck.

G'DAY YAMAMAN.Sleep well.

Srinath

I am not kicking it and its not starting, that isn't quite the problem. The problem is that ... well when kicking it, you guys know where the kick starter has the top of its stroke right, LIke you turn it out and out your foot on it and just as you start its active stroke, right there its like it hit a wall.
I can stand on it and it wont move.

Compression being low isn't a problem, not even it beign too high, unless its @20-1 or so, cos a 235lb man standing on the kick starter isn't getting it to move.

I may have run into a totally unique problem, I'll work on it today and post back guys.
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath

Starter clutch wasn't too bad at all, the spring was rather tight, and I tightened it further.
The thing is its nearly impossible to turn it over with the spark plugs in. And wihtout the plugs in its pretty damn hard and its making scraping metallic noises.
I have therefore concluded that its a busted ring or some similar issue wiht the upper end.
I am swapping it for the nice 78 motor I have, then I'll figure out on this one.
Possibly a bore and a rephase ...

Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath

Oh, it can be the cam chain front guide can it ?
Oil has aluminum dust in it, much like my friends savage had when his cam chain tensioner gave out.
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath

Motor is out. Took me 30 mins and I put it horizontal and pried it out and picked the frame back up wiht the motor sitting on my rolling cart.

Tommorow I pull the head cover and the head and see what it looks like.

Cool.
Srinath.

yamaman

I suppose if your cam chain was too tight, you'd find it hard to turn over, even harder when it's hot!
Yeah chain guides usually need replacing on these nowadays, ali shavings from the guides after all the plastic has worn away.............

It's a motor out job anyway, all you can do is rip it apart & survey the damage......Sometimes expensive, sometimes less so, can only hope!

Srinath

yamaman wrote:

I suppose if your cam chain was too tight, you'd find it hard to turn over, even harder when it's hot!
Yeah chain guides usually need replacing on these nowadays, ali shavings from the guides after all the plastic has worn away.............

It's a motor out job anyway, all you can do is rip it apart & survey the damage......Sometimes expensive, sometimes less so, can only hope!

I believe the guide wore, all the plastic and rubber is gone, and most of it was gone even before I got it. I saw in the first few oil changes a bunch of shredded metal, and less than 1/2 that quantity of black plastic.
y guess is, chain wore through the aluminum backing and is now stuck between the edge of that and the cylinder wall. I have seen it happen on a savage. It wore trenches in the cyl wall.
I'll know soon.
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath

Well, the guide actually looked fine, its bottom left corner seemed to have a chipped. can that cause a cam chain to catch it and lock the motor ?

The rear actually had more wear. It had a good scuff and wear pattern. I am going to replace both.

Then, neither cyl looked too bad either, no problem with the head either. Clean and deck and refit on those at this point looks like.

That then leaves the mystery of ... where did I get shredded aluminum from. And what caused it to bind up and make crunking noises when I turned it over. I am planning on a closer look tommorow but so far I am out of ideas.

And is a 82 supposed to have a master link on the cam chain. Cos I didn't see one.

Thanks in advance.

Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn

Dont forget to look in the oil pump.........?....and maybe the springs on the rear of the clutch...would be nice to find where the aluminum is coming from.......getting the front guide in straight is important......if you have the barrels off measure carefully both sides of the guide to the barrels....dead center and tighten...caliper........then measure the sides of the chain wheel after the head is on to center the chain wheel in the center ....caliper.....then tap the cam bearings down to center the balls in the races.......no side play in the cam...............

To align the guide if I don't take the barrels off.........more tricky......I suspose everyone has their way but I keep the guide slightly loose and turn the motor over after the cam is in place......then on first start up with with the motor running and the front guide still slightly loose and the cam chain tensioner slightly looser than normal carefully snug the bolts without falsely moving the guide with a thinned 10MM wrench........should self center itself.........

xsjohn

Srinath

I have 1/2 a mind to put the 78 motor with the timing rod removed and call it a day.
Anyway I will look in the oil pump yes, also I should look @ the sides walls of the cam chain tunnel.
The thing looked great for a motor that was locked from sitting without spark plugs in it. No scuff in the skirts, no rough spots or pits in the walls, no nothing. It was a bit more oily than I expected. That is it, maybe 10 mins it didn't get too hot.
But having pulled it apart, I am disappointed that my theory didn't pan out and the fact that now, I dunno what can be broken. Teh pistons and cyl and rings
Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn

Did you look on the back of the clutch...........

Srinath

I did that even before pulling the motor out. Looked fine, there was some casting roughness in the starter idler gear area but not in the direction of motion of the gear to be shredded when it spun. It was nearly perpendicular ... casting crap definetly.
I am going to use the daylight to look at it now. Lets see.
but I am thinking I would just toss the 78 motor in without the timing mechanism and sell the 82 motor loose ...
Cool.
Srinath.

Srinath

Oh another Q.
What are the threads on the rotor. You screw on somehting and pull with a sliding hammer right.
Cool.
Srinath.

yamaman

No no no no no, you buy the puller from mikes for $10. Every XS owner needs one. Plenty of stuffed rotors around from not using it!

www.mikesxs.net/produc...l#products

What Happened to 650rider.com?

Yamaha xs650