Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Steering dampener: When adding a sidecar it is typical to develop a front end wiggle that you must muscle thru, kind of like a bad wheel on a shopping cart. From what I’ve read this usually develops at 25-35mph, but I have it to some degree all the time and is very noticeable on take off? So I ordered a steering dampener and fork tube mount but they do not sell a mount for the frame side? (Mikes) No big deal to make one so I did. Here it is, it’s just 3/16 flat stock bent to the same radius as the XS frame, I then drilled a hole in it big enough to counter sink a threaded rod coupler and tig welded that all into place…

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

So now with these mods and some new parts the bike is hopefully more suited for the task I ask of it. I put new springs in front, running 20w fork oil, new shocks in rear, I’m running my hi pipes with jetted carbs and k+n style pods (oiled) and a hi-output coil. Roy Fisk and I were discussing porting recently and I will do that mod this winter. Also I have a tx750 swingarm that will be finding it's way to this rig as soon as I can underbrace it (again Roy suggestion) Now that I’ve addressed (or at least think so) some of my bikes shortcomings it’s time to move on to the sidecar part of this fiasco Rolling Eyes

…

nudude53 · Posted: June 18, 2009, 10:08 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Gordon;
A backtracked question on drilling the rotor..........

What is the best cutting oil and bit to use for stainless?

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Velorex 562: I bought it on ebay sight unseen because of the sellers + feedback, I was not disappointed, nice people too. I hit the “buy it now” and paid $1,100 for it, price for the bike it’s connected too? $100 with title LOL…. To be fair the motor was d.o.a. So that’s why it was only a “C” note, still a deal. The Velorex is definitely NOT made in Germany lol… It’s about as precision made as a 70’s Harley! (Oh no he didn’t). The body sits crooked, the shock tower is not at a 90 angle to the frame, and the shock mounts in front of the axel so it’s too easy to compress the spring, in other words the leverage point is wrong. I found out about the shock tower after spending 5hrs hooking up the sidecar to the bike, I used a level and had the sidecar frame perfectly parallel to the floor and bike was set up by the numbers. Then standing back, looking, taking pride in all my hard labor and the satisfaction of a job well done it happened! What is this I noticed? Why is the sidecar wheel not at a 90 angle to the ground? Why is the wheel leaning out on the top? What the F@%! So now with my head hanging low I grab my tools to see what’s up, and after removing the body from the frame I could see for the first time the shock tower was welded on out of place from the factory, dang nab it! More work oh well, I can stand here and look at it or I can take a blade and Tig and make it right, it will bother me to no end knowing it’s crooked like that so as I say “It’s chop time”

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Like I showed earlier here is a shot of the re-done swingarm and shock tower , on the shock tower all I did was make a relief cut on three sides and bent into position the tower at a 90 angle to the frame and welded it back together. I also made "U" brackets that now go around under the frame and are welded in place on the tower, much stronger then factory or at least I hope so for my wifes sake, love ya honey Wink

JeffM · Posted: June 19, 2009, 12:42 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Great looking rig !!! Lots of cool details and it all ties together well. I like all the 'shades' of black.

Here's a pic I saved of the web... I think its a Crocker. Cool pipes! Smile

JeffM · Posted: June 19, 2009, 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Stole this one off the web as well. It's a Vincent, Barb.

JeffM · Posted: June 19, 2009, 12:47 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

And have often thought that my xs2 would make a good tug. Here's a pic I saved for inspiration.

nudude53 · Posted: June 19, 2009, 1:18 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Don't forget Hollywood

JeffM · Posted: June 19, 2009, 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

It's hard to forget...

JeffM · Posted: June 19, 2009, 1:39 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

nudude53 · Posted: June 19, 2009, 1:48 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Ellie Mae wins, hands down.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

"What is the best cutting oil and bit to use for stainless? " Hi Nudude, this is what I use, there are many options but I like the Zep best myself, cuts faster I find then the hi $$$$ stuff next to it Confused

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

love the pictures of the old sidecars and that Crocker is..... well I'm in love. What is it about sidecars that make people smile? It's just a natural reaction people have and I am one of them Smile

I look at these pictures and find a smile on my face? Also I won't even get into being a fan of " the king of cool" my man Steve McQueen, ok I will a little Rolling Eyes

here I am sitting on his unrestored, original paint chp Chief (look close and you can see the goosebumps on my arms lol...) Mr. McQueen loved this bike so much he would keep it in his livingroom on display, bikes in the house, a sign of a true addict, you gotta love it Cool

p.s. my friends dad owns three of McQueens bikes including one painted by his good friend "von dutch" this chief was over $120,000 at auction, yikes!

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

while it's still show and tell I'll post this bad ride from another forum, If I get this guys info I'll post it because he deserves credit for this, that hack is a work of art ...

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Sidecar Brakes: A lot of sidecars do not have brakes? My Velorex has a brake but many do not. I found this odd at first; you wouldn’t drive around in your car with only the left side of your brakes working would you? In a panic stop wouldn’t the car go in a spin as the right side came around and the left locked up? yes it would! When I was speaking on the phone with Lonnie about his swing arm upgrade I asked him “so what about the brakes on your kit?” and he said “brakes? We never use brakes on a sidecar!” “What” I asked? That doesn’t sound right? I began to seriously question this guy’s knowledge and am thinking, common sense and that Newton guy tells me if it’s rolling mass it should have a brake (unless it’s a chopper lol…) so I tell him my opinion politely and as I recall he tells me “ #1 the drum on the Velorex will not be true with the pads, so it won’t have good stopping power. #2 it will be imposable to match up stopping power on bike and sidecar brakes #3 brakes are useless when sidecar wheel is in the air or barley touching the ground.” After that I thanked him and we hung up. Well my “common sense” (remember what I said earlier?) tells me I need a brake, so time to take things apart and see what’s up? First the drum on the sidecar wheel, it looks ok to me? I did not break out a Starret mic or anything but looks good by eye. So with that I went ahead and made a brake pedal setup. I used a stock xs pedal and modified it, made a race (i guess thats what you call it?) for the brake lever setup and notched out the sidecar frame to fit it in place. my plan was to cable the bike and car’s brakes together as well. I wanted to make it so I could apply both sidecar and bike’s brakes on one pedal and just the bike on other, it never happend, I never made it that far Rolling Eyes

COMMING SOON!!! gordonscott and his "common sense" eat some crow …

yamaman · Posted: June 19, 2009, 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

I've spent no time at all on a chair, but wouldn't it be handy to have an independent brake on the third wheel, for low speed maneuverability?

Great thread by the way Wink

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Yamaman, I have read that too and in real life, for me anyway, it only worked on right hand turns with a passenger, (keep weight on the wheel) and when going down a hill to stop the car from wanting to pass you, but like I said I'll be eating crow on this subject soon...

Barbara · Posted: June 19, 2009, 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Hi Guys,

About those sidecar brakes.....I've got probably 40,000 miles on sidecar bikes, all XS650s. I've never had a sidecar brake--neither sidecar of mine had brakes, and I just got used to it, I guess. I have a friend who runs a BMW 650 single with a Velorex, and never bothered to connect the sidecar brake--he just doesn't need it.

It seems to be a matter of miles: you get used to the drag of the chair on acceleration, and the weight of the chair when braking. It really teaches the average rider to use both brakes, though....the front brake to stop, and the rear to keep the whole outfit pointed forward!

So far, the front single disc and rear drum on the Yam have been more than up to the job, but like I mentioned, my sidecar is light-weight.

A problem that I've heard of from other sidecar riders has been calibrating the brakes of the bike with that on the sidecar. Perhaps a spring-loaded arrangement, or some sort of hydraulic compensator would work, but I've not found the necessity, and my chair has crossed the Cascades and Rockies many times--nice hills and twisty roads!

What would be much more useful, and exists if you have the money, is an adjustable device for the lean-out that can be varied while going down the road! Now that would be neat! I saw one at last year's Oyster Run out here, and it was cool, but expensive. The rider can actually adjust the lean-out while underway, according to the road crown and weight in the chair. Fantastic!

Oh, one other note: I had a steering damper on my bike when I first added the chair, and finally took it off. It was OK, I guess, but didn't seem to make any difference except at a speed of about 15 mph, and I just head through that range to higher speeds, where she smooths out---assuming you keep both hands on the bars; at *any* speed she will wobble a bit if you remove those guiding hands.....seems like it's just a matter of testing, riding, changing, and repeating endless times until you find that sweet spot where it all comes together.

Then it is just great!! Very Happy

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Barb, your experience shows in abundance with that post, I’m sure I will learn a lot from you Very Happy

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

When I had my Velorex years ago, I always wanted to hook up the sidecar brake but never did. My plan was similar to yours with a 2 pedal arrangement but to use a tractor style set-up. The sidecar brake pedal would have a bar attached that ran over and under the bike brake pedal. Stepping on the bike pedal would then work both. If only the sidecar brake was wanted, you would shift your foot over and just step on that pedal.

Barbara · Posted: June 19, 2009, 1:04 pm Post subject: Re: Hi Barb and other sidecar folk

Gordon,

I'll trade a long time of endless experimenting for some engineering knowledge--my "trial and error" method of learning this stuff seems to take forever, and is constantly evolving. usually it is "Try it, break it, try again, (Nope, that won't work, either), try again--hmmm, that's a bit better, now build a reinforcing rod and try it. Yep, that works, but it's pushing against the tach drive, have to modify it again..." etc. etc.

....finally, a year later, the silly thing tracks and doesn't kill the bike or my shoulders....

I'm quite certain that there are better methods of lining up a chair... Laughing

Little aside: does anyone know of any State or Country that requires brakes on the chair? Oh--one little thing: I'm in the process of changing my turn signals so that the right rear is on the chair instead of on the bike. It can get confusing at night for a driver behind the bike if the right turn-signal is next to the left taillight.....it really is nice, though, to have two brake lights, especially in the rain at night....silly car drivers! Rolling Eyes

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Barb wrote "I'll trade a long time of endless experimenting for some engineering knowledge" ME TOO! LOL.... don't let the name "gordonscottengineering" fool you! I'm just a hobbiest gone mad is all, I worked at a carwash up until 6 months ago (long story). And like you I just end up figuring 20 ways how not to do something, as I will demonstrate soon Laughing

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

In the beginning: just a recap, I had an “81” XS650 with 28yr old stock suspension, a stock Velorex sidecar and basically bolted them together and went for a ride. I did it by the numbers, 1/8 lean out, ¾” toe in and about an 8-10” lead on the sidecar wheel (ahead of bikes rear tire) First ride was horrible! It had soft feeling road manors, a mean front end wobble, the force needed to turn the bars was a lot to say the least and the whole thing pulled hard to the right, this all got MUCH worse with weight in the car Mad

. One problem is a compressed suspension will change toe in and lean out if the outfit is not set up under a load, I had set up this rig with the suspension compressed and held in place with tie down straps. Unfortunately the sidecar suspension was so soft it did not take much to throw everything off, even a little dip in the road would cause wallowing and pulling. So back home I went to do some more adjustments, but realizing I need to stiffen this suspension if I’m ever going to find a happy medium between empty chair and passenger. But for now I just wanted to stop it from pulling so hard to the right so I leaned the bike away from the sidecar a little more and adjusted toe in, you can’t change one without affecting the other. After about the 3rd time of going for a ride and coming back I realized I needed to pull this thing apart and stiffen up the suspension, there was no way around it. If I was going to carry a passenger, I needed to stop it from sagging so much when I put weight in the car. Also now with all this lean out dialed in to compensate for the sagging car “right handers” became even more interesting with nobody in the chair. (It wants to leave the ground bad) I need to stop this thing from sinking so much when someone gets in the chair so I don’t need so much lean out and get this thing set up right, and besides I still have that soft feeling (wallowing) in the corners. No doubt the old Velorex shock is no good, but turns out there is more to it then that….

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