oil cooler?

moondog · Posted: February 6, 2009, 7:11 pm Post subject: oil cooler?

Anybody ever used a Dual Cool II oil cooler on an XS650 frame?

moondog · Posted: March 27, 2009, 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

I'm gonna take this as a no.

So is everybody using Mike's oil filter cooler or the little radiator type?

pamcopete · Posted: March 27, 2009, 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

moondog,

Well, could be that there aren't that many oil coolers on site. I installed an oil cooler on my '78/E from some sort of honda. Just a small one that I mounted low between the frame risers on the front. You don't want it to block air flow to the cylinders. I tapped into the plugged oil lines in the front of the wet side cover and returned the oil from the cooler into a tapped fitting on the oil screen cover. Installed an oil pressure gauge while I was at it. I used a shank from a bolt to block the short oil feed to the screen chamber, held in place with a roll pin.

Here's a diagram of that setup:

and the feed from the oil pump:

returned to the screen chamber:

That extra line is for the oil pressure gauge.

moondog · Posted: March 27, 2009, 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Pretty impressive! Thanks for the pics.
Have you compared the temp differences between your setup & a stock bike? I know you've worked on quite a few of these.

pamcopete · Posted: March 27, 2009, 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

moondog,

Well, in my case, I also installed an oil pressure gauge, so my observations were pressure rather than temperature.

I initially installed an oil pressure gauge before I installed the cooler and I was shocked at how low the pressure got on a hot day at idle, like less than 1 PSI. I thought that the Kerker Two into One pipes than ran under the crankcase may have been a factor because they were very close to the oil sump and heated it up, so i installed the cooler to compensate for the Kerker exhaust system.

The pressure went up to 2 PSI at idle with the cooler.

Now, on my '81/H, I'm not going to bother installing an oil cooler. I don't think that they do much good, unless they are so large that they would obstruct the air flow to the heads, and that is more important than trying to cool the oil.

I do have an oil pressure gauge on the '81/H, however, and I read 2 PSI on a hot day at idle, the same as the '78/E with the cooler, so I concluded that the oil cooler did help compensate for the Kerker under the oil sump.

The irony of oil coolers is that they are least effective when you need them the most, idling at the stop light on a hot day. There is no air flow and there is no oil flow when sitting still at idle. The slightly finned oil sump plate and crankcase actually does a pretty good job as an oil cooler if you keep the pipes away from it.

Another "however".....I managed to put 60,000 miles on my old '78/E with the oil cooler installed, so perhaps it helped.....I'll never know.

(Note: engine had 18,000 miles before the oil cooler for a total of 78,000 miles)

xsjohn · Posted: March 27, 2009, 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Giving the oil a chance to get out of the engine and cool down would have to improve viscosity........when I measure the temp on the oil cooler on mine I never see more than 140 degrees on the hottest day and about the same for the oil filter.......would have to cool the engine somewhat.......the catch 22 on these is that the cylinders are the hottest place .....and a cooler doesn't effect that.........only mixtures and compression and exhaust would effect them and air blowing over them of course......with my 8-1 I didn't notice any significant change in cylinder temp at higher speeds.....but it was lower at low speed and idol........

xsjohn

TheRepairMan · Posted: March 28, 2009, 8:38 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

There is a company called SUNON that makes very small, PC type cooling fan, water and dust resistant, with a very low current draw, 12 volt DC.

I'll be using one or two on my oil cooler when I get it done. I'll relay the circuit so they will only run when the engine or oil temps reach a set temperature. It's really very easy to do.

-R

xsjohn · Posted: March 28, 2009, 9:11 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Doubt that fans will make any noticable difference since the cylinders are the hottest place with little or no oil cooling.....what ever oil runs down the center cam chain tunnel would be the only place the oil could effect..........see this article from a VW builder that seems to have his head on straight......

From my experience with these this could be the catch 22 ......more power more heat......less power less heat.......personally I wouldn't own a high commpression air cooled town bike....and if I did I would fix it.......and if it ended up with not enough power to please me I would buy a bigger bike.....but with the right carb and exhaust setup a bit lower compression can be suprising........they do rev nicer and with less vibration with lower compression....I run the stock exhaust and bet now mine would run even better with some free flowing ones....

www.tunacan.net/t4/tech/cr.htm

xsjohn

xs1961 · Posted: March 28, 2009, 9:39 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

My method...

xsjohn · Posted: March 28, 2009, 9:50 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Last catch 22......being air cooled and a small engine doing a lot of work with rediculously low gears all these really are is a hot running vibrating clattering town bike in warm weather........ unless "everything" is taken into account and delt with....... Cool

xsjohn

pamcopete · Posted: March 28, 2009, 10:00 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

TheRepairMan

Well, the problem is that there is very little oil flow at low RPM's, like, 1 or 2 PSI at idle. However, if you want to put a small fan on, then just run it from the neutral switch.

xsjohn · Posted: March 28, 2009, 10:17 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Pete.......neutral switch....that's brilliant........and the main reason I chose the top end cooler is to dirrect the coolest possible oil to the hottest places.....and using 1/3 of the oil the oil moves slower throught the cooler giving it a chance to cool down more...130 degrees..and the lower ends don't really run that hot anyway.....my oil in the filter on the clutchside reads 140-150 degrees in hot weather....down from 165 or so before the cooler....the oil pump produces a guart and a half or so for the entire system at 1200 rpm per min I believe......

So real cooling is found elsewhere.............like keeping it from getting so hot instead of trying to cool it down.......catch 22 for sure there......few if none want to discuss this................

xsjohn

TheRepairMan · Posted: March 28, 2009, 10:56 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Very good ideas, guys. Dual cyl head oil cooler fans relayed off the neutral switch.

Any additional top end and oil cooling can't hurt. I like the small fan idea just to keep a little air moving when the bike isn't. Fans weren't much of an option years ago. Now they're like micro small and inexpensive. Heck, the relays probably cost more, ...if indeed they are even needed.

I think think that Sunon company even makes a very small squirrel cage blower that looks a little like a car horn. I suppose one could even mount one pointed toward the front of the cyl. head ...maybe even relay it off the brake light. Would that be cool or what? In a geeky sort of way. Laughing

-R

xsjohn · Posted: March 28, 2009, 11:16 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Taming the hotter running right cylinder was the single most effective thing I did to mine to help reduce heat....25 degrees right there......secondly would be oil cooling and compression..........

A combination of things is a lot better than nothing ...........

Any air moving at a dead stop would be benificial to some degree.......don't know how you could measure it........

xsjohn

TheRepairMan · Posted: March 28, 2009, 11:53 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

xsjohn wrote:

Taming the hotter running right cylinder was the single most effective thing I did to mine to help reduce heat....25 degrees right there......secondly would be oil cooling and compression..........

A combination of things is a lot better than nothing ...........

Any air moving at a dead stop would be benificial to some degree.......don't know how you could measure it........

xsjohn

Why does the right cyl run hotter?

I'm sure the topic has been well covered. Maybe you could just point me to an old thread.

And! Now that I look at the Dual Cool II oil cooler that moondog was refering to, I guess there wouldn't be any way to fan it. I was thinking more of a radiator style, but then again, the DC II wouldn't block air flow to the cyls and head nearly as much.

www.demonscycle.com/Sh...rid/125175

-R

xsjohn · Posted: March 28, 2009, 11:58 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

It's the drive side and dissipation..........

The cooler down low won't block airflow.............and you want the inlet and outlet to be on top of the cooler so the oil won't drain back..............

xsjohn

pamcopete · Posted: March 28, 2009, 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Well, we might as well open the other can of worms....using Mikes increased flow oil pump.....If the problem is reduced oil flow at idle, I would assume using Mikes oil pump would help. The downside is that increased flow also means increased pressure, one of the objectives, but increased pressure also means that it's more likely you'll open the oil screen bypass valve (14 PSI, differential) and circulate junk through the engine. Opening of the bypass valve can even occur with the standard pump when the engine and oil are cold at startup. Its the reason that you should keep the revs below 2,000 RPM during warmup else the bypass will open and spew junk in the inards of the engine.

y answer to that, which I did on both bikes, is to remove the bypass screw, ball and spring and install a threaded stud so there is no bypass at all. However, I also installed an oil pressure gauge so I can monitor the pressure at startup and keep it below 15 PSI to prevent possible damage to the sump screen and oil filter screen. Just takes a couple of minutes for the pressure to drop when the engine warms up. The gauge will also alert me to a blockage or lack of pressure as well. I can also observe the destruction of the polymers in multi viscosity oil caused by the mechanical crushing of the molecular spiral polymers by the roller and ball bearings and gears, the result of which is the oil reverts to it's base viscosity and the pressure goes down.

While we are on the subject of the bypas valve, I think that it is counterproductive. One of the things that could cause it to open is a sudden accumulation of junk in the screen due to some part in the engine having disintegrated, clogged up the sump screen to the point where it collapses due to the increased suction, the junk migrates through the oil pump up to the oil filter screen, the very last line of defense, so the bypass valve opens and lets the junk into the workings of the engine!

The early XS's had the bypass valve located in the pump and the bypassed oil went back into the sump instead of in the engines workings. Must have been a cost saving deal when they moved it to the filter screen.

xsjohn · Posted: March 28, 2009, 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Often thought about the high flow pump....then I could open the top end hole more.......and not over oil the engine bearings..... cam bearings not being forced fed.........

Bearings though don't need too much oil or they can slide....trying to overcome the wall of oil in their revolving path...I guess.......read some articles on turbo failures and it turned out that less oil was one of the solutions............sometimes more is not better.....????

Real oil filters slow down the oil flow 15 percent....according to a Wick engineer......and he said that was measured with 30 weight oil......

xsjohn

TheRepairMan · Posted: March 29, 2009, 7:58 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

xsjohn wrote:

Often thought about the high flow pump....then I could open the top end hole more.......and not over oil the engine bearings..... cam bearings not being forced fed.........

Bearings though don't need too much oil or they can slide....trying to overcome the wall of oil in their revolving path...I guess.......read some articles on turbo failures and it turned out that less oil was one of the solutions............sometimes more is not better.....????

Real oil filters slow down the oil flow 15 percent....according to a Wick engineer......and he said that was measured with 30 weight oil......

xsjohn

Okay, so when the time comes, I would love to do Mike's HP oil pump, the Dual Cool II oil cooler mounted with the fittings up ...run to the top end with a bit larger hole drilled in the flow restrictor, and a real oil filter like this...

Anyone else use this from Mikes? Is it just a straight forward bolt on deal?
It looks really nice to me, and may add even more cooling for the bottom end.

I hope all this has answered moondog's questions.

-R

penn71911 · Posted: March 29, 2009, 8:21 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

I use it, never measured temp to see it it makes a difference... Just for peace of mind and the filter itself is an upgrade... plus it looks pretty trick sticking out of the right side cover... Smile

xsjohn · Posted: March 29, 2009, 10:27 am Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Pete....78000 is totally amazing..............think mine would have done that but mine came to me with a bad center bearing at 9000 and the crank vibrated horrible.....and bad luck still holding the replacement crank had a bad R/S bearing that went at 55000...... heard a bit of a whirl when I put it in at 25000......there is no doubt in my mind that some cranks are good and some aren't.....but I should have checked the R/S bearing more closely......but super tiny nicks on the races are hard to see...andthey later grow to a major racket......have to spin the crank on wood blocks on a wood table to hear them.....and luck plays too.......

TheRepairMan....the top end hole stock is .116 thou.....with the highflow pump around .140 thou would increase top end flow considerably.....and there is no way oil could collect on top.....the return holes are huge......I was just too cheap to buy the pump so I just set my oil pump side clearance to .002 thou max.....and increased the tiny oil feed holes on the 3 crankroller bearings by 15 %.....................

And since you are willing to experiment there is a damn on the rear of the cam tunnel on the head that dirrects the oil forward and prevents most from slinging rearward.....since the oil comes down from above the cam most would sling forward just by the design.....if a notch was cut in that damn some more oil would sling rearward maybe quelling the intake racket......used oilers on mine and it definately made the intakes dead silent at .004 thou settings.......lot of work for that though.....

xsjohn

TheRepairMan · Posted: March 29, 2009, 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

xsjohn wrote:

And since you are willing to experiment there is a damn on the rear of the cam tunnel on the head that directs the oil forward and prevents most from slinging rearward.....since the oil comes down from above the cam most would sling forward just by the design.....if a notch was cut in that damn some more oil would sling rearward maybe quelling the intake racket......used oilers on mine and it definitely made the intakes dead silent at .004 thou settings.......lot of work for that though.....

xsjohn

While I've got the drill out, what do ya think about just drilling through the dams on both sides to let a little oil go toward the intake valves?
Although, I am intrigued by your oiler mod.

And I agree with xsjohn about the 78K on Pete's bike. That is amazing!
I think I parked mine at 29,000+, but it still ran pretty decent. I only parked it because my daughter came along.

She's cordless now ...has her own car, so I have two bikes now!

-R

xsjohn · Posted: March 29, 2009, 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

In my mind the reason for the damn is paranoia of the designers on oil mist being in the rear and possibly be drawn into the crankcase vent.......that to me is moot because the one way valve will help keep negative crancase pressure anyway ......since I put one on mine oil consumption is way down.......

I have never messed the damn and have only seen one guy that removed the whole thing......never heard back from him ....that was 2-3 years ago............I was thinking about a 1/4 inch or 3/8 inch groove in the middle of the damn in the center line with the cam all the way down.......could try it that way and later increase if needed.......looks like your the man on this one..........with my oilers the oil must spatter around in there pretty good off the spring washers with no problems due to the extra oil.... (.022 thou hole in each oiler nozzel)........

Since most of the oil is already slung forward because of the cam revolving forward and the oil coming down from the lifter fromabove there won't be as much going rearward anyway....being real conservative may not amount to much oil going back......

xsjohn

pamcopete · Posted: March 29, 2009, 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: oil cooler?

Xsjohn,

Well, I'm not exagerating. I think it's due to the following:

1. Oil cooler.
2. Change oil 1,000 miles
3. Pennzoil 20W50
4. Remove and block the bypass. (no junk in the oil passages)
5. Ride all year round, bike never sat.
6. Electronic ignition (smoother, more complete combustion.

What Happened to 650rider.com?

Yamaha xs650