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xs650 > > Frank-in-Bike, Non XS parts that are Interchangeable > > Front / Rear Ends and Shocks > > Front end does not feel right |
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Front end does not feel right
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Gmaan 650Rider Supporter
Joined: May 09, 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Napa, CA
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Posted: February 2, 2009, 3:38 am Post subject: Front end does not feel right |
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My 650 is rebuilt from head to toe. I put tapered roller bearing in the head, new wheel bearings, and rebuilt the front forks. I put 20w oil in the forks.
When I am going around turns the front end just doesn't feel rock solid? I need to add a stearing stabilizer, and think this will help but any other input would be help full. What stearing stabilizers do you all recommend?
_________________ -----------------------------
1996 Kawasaki ZX1100 (GPZ1100), every day rider
1976 Yamaha RD400, (Ride on weekends, piss off neighborhood)
1974 Kawasaki H1 500 triple (MY BABY)
1975 Yamaha TX 650 (just need paint) |
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yamaman Support Staff
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 1638 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: February 2, 2009, 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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By steering stabiliser, I take it you mean a steering damper? What this does is dampens the steering from flicking side to side ie handle bar shakes, as you not saying it shakes, I doubt a dampner will fix your issue.
I do highly recommend a fork brace, which will make the front much more solid. Also, as you have just changed steering head bearings, you should get the front wheel in the air and check for ANY play, if you didn't get the cups right in first time, they may have now knocked themselves into place, leaving the bearings loose!
_________________ Its not enough to have an aim in life, you have to pull the trigger! |
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Gmaan 650Rider Supporter
Joined: May 09, 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Napa, CA
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Posted: February 3, 2009, 1:06 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Damper, sorry. You know the bearings are good, I checked them. Fork brace, will this really help? How tight should the head bearings be?
_________________ -----------------------------
1996 Kawasaki ZX1100 (GPZ1100), every day rider
1976 Yamaha RD400, (Ride on weekends, piss off neighborhood)
1974 Kawasaki H1 500 triple (MY BABY)
1975 Yamaha TX 650 (just need paint) |
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xsjohn Full Member
Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 5857 Location: North Carolina USSA
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Posted: February 3, 2009, 1:17 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Kept my ball bearings with the notch for straight line expressway....perfect for the express.....little notchy around town at very low speeds.....right trade off for me........
""What I would do""...,,,,,Mark it.......Snug the bearings till it looses its centering ability at lower speed and feels weird...then back of an 1/4 inch or so (experiment) then the high speed should not be such a frenzy.....and low speed controlable......think these are a compromise........hate to feel uncomfortable on the express......takes a bit of experimentation.......doesn't cost anything and it might stabilize the twisties for you........geometry plays a lot there too........when I lowered the front on my Special a bit too much it didn't like it....65MHP in the twisties in the mountains made for a washy mini tank slap feel on the down hill sweepers where there was more weight on the front......hope this helps...........what ever you add to the front for stability the bearings have to be right.........
xsjohn
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yamaman Support Staff
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 1638 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: February 3, 2009, 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Gmaan, as John said, I tighten them till I feel them bind and back off till they are free.
A fork brace is a good investment on these, much more so than a damper. A damper only becomes necessary if you run the forks up through the trees, or/and use narrow bars/clip ons, or alter the geometry to make it sharper in any way. Cheers
_________________ Its not enough to have an aim in life, you have to pull the trigger! |
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xsjohn Full Member
Joined: Jul 30, 2006 Posts: 5857 Location: North Carolina USSA
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Posted: February 3, 2009, 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Free but not too free....the game is in that description.....xsjohn
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xsleo Full Member
Joined: Oct 28, 2007 Posts: 1528 Location: Earlville NY
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Posted: February 3, 2009, 4:27 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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when i did mine i adjusted them the book for my harley say's to do it. the book say to support the bike so it is upright so the front end is completely suspended and the bike is level. remove all accesory wieght, such as windshield, that may affect the way the front end swings. if clutch cable pulls the front end , disconnect it. place a suitable marking surface on the rear tip of fender, such as masking tape. with the front end straight ahead , place a pointer so the base is on the floor with the pointer centered on fender. lossen lower triple clamp pinch bolts. to check the adjustment, tap the fender one way untill the front end falls away on its own. place a mark on the tape at this point. repeat in the other direction. measure the distance between the marks. is should be 1 to 2 inches. adjust as needed to get in spec. if more than 2 inches loosen the adjuster, if less than an inch tighten the adjuster. if the don't seem to have any effect the fork tubes may be stuck in the clamps. that isn't word for word but is the way they do it. you want the lower tree to be able to slide on the tubes. that way the adjuster nuts can adjust the preload. once it is set tighten the clamp bolts and recheck to make sure the setting didn't change. i did this and it feels good. when i first put the bearings and the lower tre in and put the top bearing in and the nuts on , i snugged the lower nut down a pair of pliers, while turning the tree back and forth to seat the bearings. then loosened them back up. then snugged the nut down by hand till there was just no play in the bearings. then used the harley "fall- away" to fine tune the settings. got mine set about 1 1/2 inch fall-away. this is done with the whole front end on the bike, as you would ride it.
_________________ "You live more in five minutes on a bike than most people do in there whole life"
'75 XS650B with a 79 dual disc front end, rear disk brake, Chrysler reg, Radio Shack rect, LED tail/ brake and turn signals. |
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yamaman Support Staff
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 1638 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: February 3, 2009, 5:22 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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xsleo quote:
"When i did mine i adjusted them the book for my Harley say's to do it. The book says to support the bike so it is upright so the front end is completely suspended and the bike is level.
Remove all accesory weight, such as the windshield, that may affect the way the front end swings. If the clutch cable pulls the front end, disconnect it.
Place a suitable marking surface on the rear tip of fender, such as masking tape. With the front end straight ahead, place a pointer so the base is on the floor with the pointer centered on fender. Loosen lower triple clamp pinch bolts.
To check the adjustment, tap the fender one way untill the front end falls away on its own. Place a mark on the tape at this point, repeat in the other direction. Measure the distance between the marks. It should be 1 to 2 inches, adjust as needed to get in spec. If more than 2 inches loosen the adjuster, if less than an inch tighten the adjuster.
If the don't seem to have any effect the fork tubes may be stuck in the clamps.
That isn't word for word but is the way they do it. You want the lower tree to be able to slide on the tubes. That way the adjuster nuts can adjust the preload. Once it is set tighten the clamp bolts and recheck to make sure the setting didn't change. I did this and it feels good.
When I first put the bearings and the lower tree in and put the top bearing in and the nuts on , i snugged the lower nut down a pair of pliers, while turning the tree back and forth to seat the bearings. then loosened them back up. then snugged the nut down by hand till there was just no play in the bearings. Then used the harley "fall- away" to fine tune the settings. Got mine set about 1 1/2 inch fall-away. This is done with the whole front end on the bike, as you would ride it."
Sorry to edit your post Leo, was very difficult to read with no capitals or paragraphs.
You say if it's more than 2", loosen the adjuster- sounds like you might have got it the wrong way around maybe?
Cheers
_________________ Its not enough to have an aim in life, you have to pull the trigger! |
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Gmaan 650Rider Supporter
Joined: May 09, 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Napa, CA
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Posted: February 4, 2009, 12:46 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Well I will do the first thing mentioned, tighten it up a bit and loosen just a pinch! You know it is probably that my bearing have seated and are wrung in now. I will look into a fork brace, any suggestions?
_________________ -----------------------------
1996 Kawasaki ZX1100 (GPZ1100), every day rider
1976 Yamaha RD400, (Ride on weekends, piss off neighborhood)
1974 Kawasaki H1 500 triple (MY BABY)
1975 Yamaha TX 650 (just need paint) |
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weekendrider Support Staff
Joined: Apr 20, 2007 Posts: 1284 Location: SW MO 2x83SK 79F 78E
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Posted: February 4, 2009, 1:21 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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www.tkat.com/forkbrace.html
He did have some for the 650 also.
_________________ geocached @ N 37° 26.917', W 093 11.724, elev. 1148' |
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xsleo Full Member
Joined: Oct 28, 2007 Posts: 1528 Location: Earlville NY
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Posted: February 4, 2009, 3:59 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Thanks, Yamaman, I'll try better.
If the tension on the bearings is too tight, the weight of the front end can't fall-away as easily. With the front end straight ahead, it balances. When you push the end of the handle bar, it moves the front end off balance. When the weight of the front end overcomes the bearing tension, it falls-away. If it is too tight, you have to push the front end farther off balance to get it to fall-away. If too loose, then it won't take much to push it off center and fall-away. So more than 2 inches you need to loosen the adjuster. Less than 1 inch you need to tighten.
I think this procedure will work with loose ball bearings also.
_________________ "You live more in five minutes on a bike than most people do in there whole life"
'75 XS650B with a 79 dual disc front end, rear disk brake, Chrysler reg, Radio Shack rect, LED tail/ brake and turn signals. |
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yamaman Support Staff
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 1638 Location: Perth Western Australia
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Posted: February 4, 2009, 4:33 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Yes, I see what your saying now. Never heard that, but it makes sense to me!
_________________ Its not enough to have an aim in life, you have to pull the trigger! |
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metalredneck Full Member
Joined: Aug 04, 2008 Posts: 308
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Posted: February 4, 2009, 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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I find tires (tyres?) make a huge difference. The trials unit on the front had a kind of "rhythm" to it in a hard corner. I can't wait to put the Dunlop on this spring.
_________________ Kick it 'til it vibrates. |
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xsleo Full Member
Joined: Oct 28, 2007 Posts: 1528 Location: Earlville NY
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Posted: February 5, 2009, 4:23 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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gmaan, are you still running the 75 forks? i have the later, off a 79, 35 mm forks. the front end feels better with it. the 1 mm difference doesn't seem like much, but it is noticable. the main reason i did the swap was to have the later style dual disc on the front. a fork brace is on my to do list. it will stiffen the forks up some. less flex keeps the tire where you want it to be.
_________________ "You live more in five minutes on a bike than most people do in there whole life"
'75 XS650B with a 79 dual disc front end, rear disk brake, Chrysler reg, Radio Shack rect, LED tail/ brake and turn signals. |
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Gmaan 650Rider Supporter
Joined: May 09, 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Napa, CA
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Posted: February 8, 2009, 2:26 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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no I am running a 78 front end with (i think) 36 mm fork tubes. Dual disk from a XS1100. You know from the previous answers, my front tire is a big one, that might be part of the problem.
_________________ -----------------------------
1996 Kawasaki ZX1100 (GPZ1100), every day rider
1976 Yamaha RD400, (Ride on weekends, piss off neighborhood)
1974 Kawasaki H1 500 triple (MY BABY)
1975 Yamaha TX 650 (just need paint) |
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Gmaan 650Rider Supporter
Joined: May 09, 2007 Posts: 215 Location: Napa, CA
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Posted: February 8, 2009, 2:29 am Post subject: Re: Front end does not feel right |
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Also when I rebuilt the forks, I measured the clearance of the fork tubes and the bearings in the lower legs, it was in spec from the manual listing. Now I was using the 75 specs, not the xs1100 specs, but assumed they were the same.
_________________ -----------------------------
1996 Kawasaki ZX1100 (GPZ1100), every day rider
1976 Yamaha RD400, (Ride on weekends, piss off neighborhood)
1974 Kawasaki H1 500 triple (MY BABY)
1975 Yamaha TX 650 (just need paint) |
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