what kind of people are in the top?

nuklearzelph

this is not related to bikes at all. i actually wouldn't post it except for some political stuff on here. so this is a little different way at looking at things, so maybe others have an idea on it?

i am the type of person who listens well and observes most everything around me. i don't feel that i think like most people in general and that is why i have thought about this and come up with this hypothesis. the basic idea is there are three types of thinkers in the world.

level 1
level 2
level 3

or
linear
planar
spacial (or 3d)

1 is the absolute idiots out there. they never think about what they are doing, always obnoxious and usually react and have no concept of "my own actions" a true airhead would come in this area.

2 is what most people are. they can see cause and effect. (something unattainable by the level 1) they have a certain scope of interest or how "wide" they can see. in other words they can connect the dots of something so far..., whatever it is related too. like what is causing this noise in my engine? (what does it sound like and what do i know?) also they can see wider with experience, making them seem more level 3 compared to a lesser experienced person.

3 few people can attain this level very often. many people who are like this are misunderstood or seen as "genius" largely it depends on what they do with it. they are not too different from a level 2 except they see "wider".

an example:
some engineering students are in a discussion about where all the energy goes from gasoline. most of them are total idiots and are just looking for $$$. so they pretty much are taking it all as it comes while they go through school or "bootstrapping". most people could recognize that a great deal of that energy was dissipated as heat in the engine, but most would miss the connection to viscosity of oil and friction in bearings causing some of the heat in the transmission or differentials. also they may not all be aware of the principal that energy in equals energy out. we can just say that a level 3 would be able to draw connections to those things the other students didn't easier/faster.

that is not a real good example, but the basic idea is that if you never think of it, you never get any ideas. so if nobody ever thought that viscosity affected an engine, they would have a hard time understanding why they just lost power going from 30w to 50w.

it makes more sense looking at chemistry or physics really, at least to me. but you can look at the 3d ness as being multiple level 2 ideas of the same thing all layered on itself, just different parts at once.

also people are dynamic, so you have to give this the liberty that someone is capable of switching to another lever for whatever reason. it is mostly a way of looking at how they think most of the time. just because a 1 or 2 is thinking real hard, doesn't mean they make it to 3. also each level has variation, so some 1 are more 1 than others.

ok, that is the basic idea if i am clear in any way. i am not very good at explaining myself most of the time. so i hope that is clear enough.

so with that in mind, what kind of people are most responsible for the political and economical problems we are currently facing? what about the relentless B$#^%^ that are in the top of these big businesses? what about the celebrities that are so big in the media?

is Paris Hilton really a #1? could you expect that Einstein was a #3? and is this model even a realistic way to gauge people?

anyway that has been rattling around in my head for several years and i am curious about what others think of it.

Barbara

Hmmmm....interesting. One might theorize that anyone having achieved any of your three levels--even Level 1--would have the humility to admit that they have yet to reach their potential, and continue to seek education and experience, the building blocks of an active relationship with the Universe in general and our own lives in particular.

As to our so-called "leaders", be they political or economic, I believe that one can "subjectively relate" to one's situation, that is to say, a president of a failing bank can rationalize the failure by ascribing causes other than his own action or inaction, and actually believe it. Sad, isn't it?

"Cause and Effect"--it's everywhere. Why, if you hadn't written your letter, I wouldn't have answered. Cause and effect.....oh, and if you think that an engine can lose power by going from 20wt to 50wt oil, try kick-starting a Norton after it has wet-sumped! Cause: British engineering. Effect: A normal human being cannot even kick the thing over!

Basically, to be honest, I have no idea of the human thought process, and I'm not certain that anyone has. The more I age, the less I understand, but at least now I can see that I don't understand it, as compared to being 25 and having every answer for every question.

So.....it's all good....or not. Wink

nuklearzelph

there is quite a debate on how people think, but i would suggest you stay away from the "real" psychologists. a stupid high school class was enough for that. everything is somehow related to sex. Confused

i wish i understood less, i'd be less stupid Sad

ok, that is just because i am still a kid and keep thinking i have an answer. at least i can recognize that i am not right all the time.

i think i need to add one thing. this is an abstraction like anything else. you have to conveniently forget about some things to make it really work. obviously we know that greed and selfishness runs most of these shady politicians. i just used what i observed over some time to create a model.

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

Behavioral psychologists are very good at explaining WHY people think WHAT people think. Among the people who study behavioral psychology are the folks who write TV commercials that you think are "cool." Proof that the behavioralists know what they're doing resides in the fact that you worry more about acne than about how much the medicine costs. Start from there.

Thinking is a process. Everyone has thoughts, so everyone believes they know how to think, but it isn't true. If you want to learn how to think, you need to know that the process requires four things.

One is the ability to think (no retards or crazy people here).

Two is language skills. Thoughts cannot be framed in any way other than through language use. Beyond basic impulses such as 'I am hungry' or 'I am horny' or 'I need to take a crap' are things such as you mentioned about how your engine works, etc. You cannot think about those things without you have language skills which allow you to formulate thoughts. If you don't know the word "piston," for example, you're gonna have a hard time figuring out how an engine works. So you need to have the ability to learn and you need language skills.

Three is logic. A knowledge of formal logic is required of anyone who wants to think seriously about anything at all. Logic is a mind-blower because, while you learn it and for years after, these bombs keep going off in your head -- "So THAT'S why I couldn't accomplish, build, fix, this that or the other thing I tried to figure out before I learned how to figure." The oldest joke in logic classes is that logic is irrational and, as you get deeper into it, it certainly seems that way sometimes. Logic -- what makes sense of any situation -- isn't always apparent to the uninitiated. The better you learn logic the more deliberately you will act and think, and the fewer mistakes you will make.

Four is ambition. Contrary to popular belief, learning is hard work and it's a lifelong process. If you set out to learn all you can, you never get done until you die. Lazy people get tired of it early on and give it up to play golf or play with themselves or something. But if you persist you find that the more you learn -- the more your skills with logic and language grow -- the more it is POSSIBLE for you to learn. In a real way, therefore, anyone who has the physical and mental equipment to learn and the ambition to do so can make themselves about as smart as they want to be. This is not to say that knowledge and intelligence are the same thing, but the two things feed on each other.

Ignorance and stupidity, when one encounters them, are therefore disgusting to the extent that they are self-inflicted.

Five facts about life the United States of America: 1) Television is intellectually toxic and is that way by design. 2) Everything in the world there is to know is written down somewhere in a book. 3) The United States has more books and more libraries than any other country in the world. 4) You don't get an education in school. Schools teach you only what government and industry want you to know, which mostly boils down to mythology about George Washington and the fact that s*** rolls downhill. They teach you arithmetic so you can count the turds as they roll by on the assembly line. 5) If you want an education, therefore, you have to do it yourself.

nj1639

"Do no harm."
The who, what, where, when, how of our existence is so complicated to ourselves yet so simple. An alien outside observer would quickly surmise that we're all brain damaged, no matter what level, and we are. Just compare ourselves with the rest of the living organisms that we share this planet with. If you want to know the meaning of life, there it is in its simplicity. Reproduction. Everything else is window dressing. Maybe it all does come down to sex but in a natural reproductive way, otherwise sex is a corruption of nature.
We live in a Mickey Mouse fantasy world of our own creation that natural selection no longer applies, save for the occasional Darwin Award winner.
If we were all thrown back into the stoneage, who would survive? I'd love to see the corrupt politicians and celebrities groveling for a few acorns. What a power shift that would be, eh?
In the meantime I'll continue to observe the insanity of the human race and try to 'do no harm'.
Signed,
Alien Outside Observor

nj1639

Good post there Jimmy, ever heard Zappas' " The Slime"?

I am gross and perverted
Im obsessed n deranged
I have existed for years
But very little had changed
I am the tool of the government
And industry too
For I am destined to rule
And regulate you

I may be vile and pernicious
But you cant look away
I make you think Im delicious
With the stuff that I say
I am the best you can get
Have you guessed me yet?
I am the slime oozin out
From your tv set

You will obey me while I lead you
And eat the garbage that I feed you
Until the day that we dont need you
Dont got for help...no one will heed you
Your mind is totally controlled
It has been stuffed into my mold
And you will do as you are told
Until the rights to you are sold

Thats right, folks..
Dont touch that dial

Well, I am the slime from your video
Oozin along on your livinroom floor

I am the slime from your video
Cant stop the slime, people, lookit me go

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

I've had and listened to Zappa albums --

Weasels Ripped My Flesh
Apostrophe
Joe's Garage
Zoot Allures
200 Motels
-- the one with "Suzy Creamcheese" on it (too much acid, can't recall the album title but that one song is burned into my brain)

-- but that's all thirty-five years ago. I don't now know if I ever heard "The Slime." Is it a song or an album?

y favorite song is from Zoot Allures -- "Dungeon of Despair." It's about relationships. Ummmm, I think it is. Ummmmm. Yup. That's what I think. Anyway, it's my favorite.

nj1639

It's a song, maybe from 'Overnight Sensation". Allmost in a rap format, maybe one of the first rap songs.

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

I might have heard it. I dropped acid at this guy's house one time -- he had a HUGE stereo, a room full of blues records, and every album FZ ever made -- as of 1971. Things got pretty fuzzy after Hound Dog Taylor and the Houserockers, though. Good thing we had plenty of Ripple.

nuklearzelph

i must be weird if the advertisements and media are designed to turn me into a zombie or make me like them. i hate tv. i'd rather watch movies, mostly sci-fi. so they melted my brain there. Laughing

a bike ride is sooo much more interesting.

interesting stuff. i have heard people talking about the tv being the remote control of "us".

i don't think about this kinda stuff much, just when i am really bored. mostly either my next project step or the last sci-fi i watched. Smile

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

The programming is in the movies, too. It's just not so blatant there. It's less obviously apparent. Critics and parental organizations just a few years ago made noises about the fact that it ought to be disallowed.

Fat chance.

And it isn't really "programming". The victims aren't zombies who act on command. They just teach people to want things they don't need and buy things they can't afford.

mlcarter815 · Full Member Joined: Jul 03, 2007 Posts: 64

The ancient greeks have more of a play in the modern world than the behavioral psychologists. It is rhetoric that influences advertisements, songs, movies, and everyday conversations. When an advertisement tries to get at your desires, your wishes to be socially excepted or your desire to be beautiful, that is a pathos appeal. An ethos appeal applies to the audiences morals. If you are a good person, you will use/buy this product or do this activity. A logos appeal presents a logical, agreed upon fact. You have always been looking for a broom that picks up what you sweep, so buy a swiffer sweeper.

Those Chevy commercials where they show the trucks being abused on the farm or construction site use a rhetorical appeal that dates back to aristotle.

Those toothpaste commercials that say 9 out of 10 dentists recommend....that uses argumentum ad populum. An appeal that states that since this many people agree, then it must be true.

metalredneck · Full Member Joined: Aug 04, 2008 Posts: 308

Yes Chilluns, it's time for anarchy.

xs1961

..Sorry..fell asleep.... Wink

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

mlcarter815 wrote:

Those Chevy commercials where they show the trucks being abused on the farm or construction site use a rhetorical appeal that dates back to aristotle.

Those toothpaste commercials that say 9 out of 10 dentists recommend....that uses argumentum ad populum. An appeal that states that since this many people agree, then it must be true.

Yup. Rhetoric is the study of how to push the buttons. Behavioral psychology tells the rhetorician which buttons to push.

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