better oil circulation

BiffTirkle · Posted: June 3, 2008, 7:24 pm Post subject: better oil circulation

i read somewhere on here about improving oil circulation. someone was mentioning widening a hole somewhere at the head. i cant find it. you know how it is, someone makes a post about a tire, or hell about the damned news. and somehow the conversation migrates to something completely different! anyway, im wanting to improve oil circulation. any pointers, or links would be appreciated!

xsjohn · Posted: June 3, 2008, 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

The original hole is about .116........adding a oil cooler to the top end requires at least a .125 for it to flow at the original rate.........I added oilers to the intake valves and mine is at .140...........not sure you gain anything by opening the hole for no reason.........there is a high output oil pump.....not sure that is necessary either......ball bearings only need enough to keep metal to metal contact from hapening.....more than necessary can even damage them by making them slide...........xsjohn

davidnj2 · Posted: June 3, 2008, 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

Hey John, I totally agree on your over pressurising the roller bearing theory. I learned at school that this can cause the balls or rollers to hydroplane inside the races. I'm not sure though, how much pressure is to much and I haven't experienced this as yet.

xsjohn · Posted: June 3, 2008, 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

May be another reason the right side main can fail.....it's awash in oil......but is wide open for any debris that may pass through it....xsjohn

BiffTirkle · Posted: June 3, 2008, 8:43 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

the main reason i ask this is because i have an engine i will be installing the new 750 kit on. im just curious if i need to enhance the oil circulation with this kit. ive seen that new high volume oil pump. but its nearly 200 bucks!

xsjohn · Posted: June 3, 2008, 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

Should be no different.......could check the side clearance on the oil pump and put it a .002 .....found mine a max clearance.......the min and max clearances are in the manual....xsjohn

xsleo · Posted: June 4, 2008, 2:34 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

i have heard off people opening the hole up, to like a 1/4 inch. in the fitting that the line to the top of engine engine hooks to on the case. to get more oil to the head an opened it so much that the bottm end starved for oil. not a good thing. with some thing ,like a cooler , restrict the flow back to where it should be. will be ok . as xsjohn has proved.

MrMopar · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2008 Posts: 19

Doesn't the oil feed to the top of the cylinder head at least partially provide oil-cooling to the top end of the engine? I can see that the cylinder head has few cooling fins on the sides, and zero fins directly on top. I was under the assumption that the cylinder head was oil-cooled in the passive manner of oiling the cam.

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

A question -- Doesn't the timing chain sling a lot of oil up from the crankcase?

weekendrider · Posted: June 7, 2008, 10:46 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

jimmy I'd think the back guide would strip/wipe alot of the oil off.

xsjohn · Posted: June 7, 2008, 11:03 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

xsleo.....not a quarter of an inch on the restrictor for sure......stock is .116.....with the oiler and the cooler I am running maybe .168.......the oil cooler does restrict slightly so all in all I would figure I am really at .150 or so......the intake oilers have .022 oil holes and of course times two....put the restrictor of .062 in each of the banjo bolts on the head and removed the restrictor or at least bored it to .250....slides down the road now.......especially with carbs right......and the tall gearing......xsjohn

62 + 62 + 22 + 22 = .168
but the probable restriction is maybe .150 considering the bit of effort it takes the oil to mavigate the cooler.......overall temps down 30 degrees in the summer........combination of things for sure does that........

Again....the intake oilers allowed me to set the intakes at .005 with no noise which advanced the intake timing a bit for better torque....and the timing 1/8" retarded from the F mark at 1200 rpm......pulls now at 2000 where before it just clanked.......and at 2500 it is really starting to pull.....with the tall gearing I think now I am getting 55 mpg withthe 134MJ........back to stock fuel mileage and running twice as strong........sure makes me wonder what the s*** Yamaha and the epa were doing.......to me 55MPG is 55MPG and if you have to run it lean to get that this is poor design.......I am a "lot" richer and gettin the original mileage.......and down 30 degrees to boot......

xsjohn

dwyatt · Posted: June 7, 2008, 11:50 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

John,

Tell me about your intake oilers. I'm building a track bike and it'll run hard for extended periods, so was wondering about this mod. I already plan to add the oil cooler as soon as I get the motor done.

xsjohn · Posted: June 7, 2008, 12:14 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

DWYATT.........not so sure the intakes couldn't be done from the top cap....if turbulence didnt bolow the oil off course....with the same idea just dribbleing down.......this for me was to get a bit more bottom end torque and quiet the valves at .005.......don't know the importance for racing......for me it was just for torque..anvanced intakes....and noise.....and to quell the trashed intake valve tips which elephants feet would sure do for that.......xsjohn

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rackamongoose · New Member Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 4

Dont risk it the Japs built this engine to be bomb proof. The best place to run feeds for a oil cooler is from the clutch cover

xsjohn · Posted: January 16, 2009, 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

Only 40 thousand miles on mine.......cam looked like brand new this spring.....

xsjohn

jpowell · Posted: January 16, 2009, 9:48 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

To answer your question Biff, if you look at the tube delivering oil atop the head, between that and the "block" there is a fitting. That fitting has a small hope that XSjohn specifies the sizes in. That restricts the oil...
The reasoning is that the oil pump pumps the oil to two places. That oil riser tube, and the bearings. Opening up that hole to allow more oil to the top will push less to the bearings...

xsjohn · Posted: January 16, 2009, 10:10 pm Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

Wouldn't open the top end hole for no reason I don't think......the high volume pump should send oil to the trans and top end and crank in the correct proportion from the main oil gallery......which I believe to be proportioned right from the factory with the stock pump......seems with the high volume pump you will get more up top anyway and every where else.........(question being....do the ball and roller bearings really need more oil.....they can slide if over oiled some say)...

the reason I opened mine from factory .116 to .125-.130 when I added the top end cooler is to overcome the slight restriction due to the added length of the cooler and short tubes........making the flow like stock again....

BUT THEN AGAIN....Always wondered with a high volume pump maybe the top end could use more ....say .125 with out a cooler......or .140 with a cooler......lots of cool oil up there then.....? just thinking...for some one else to dick with......don't see how it would hurt anything.....and may save some bearings down below from the extra oil from a high volume pump....??

Oh and.......the .022 holes I used for the intake oilers don't use much oil.........just drip out on the intakes......doesn't reduce the oil pressure much at all.........drip...drip.. drip.....ect...... made up for that with oil pump side clearance........

xsjohn

xsleo · Posted: January 17, 2009, 2:23 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

xsjohn, you mentioned oil pump side clearance on other threads also. on mine i have .0015 between the outer rotor and a straight edge, .005 between the inner rotor and straight egde. is this ok? my books don't list a clearance.

xsjohn · Posted: January 17, 2009, 10:39 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

Leo.......would think it would be good to have inner and outer impellers the exact same thickness....(maybe the manufactures lathe groves on the larger impeller (or visa versa) are keeping them different--might could smooth it a bit on fine paper)...then lay both of them in the removable case......with a good smoothed straight edge layed across the edge of the case (at different angles) carefully set the side clearance at say .002 with feeler guage....sanding with fine paper layed on a flat surface going in circular motions moving the cover frequently........not sure how you measured it but it sounds like you are doing it the way I did......my impellers inner and outer I made the exact same thickness...

When I was done I had lost my marks....I put the impellers in the case and and snugged the case to the sidecover and spun the pump changing the impellers till there was no binding......would think this is important.....

Haven't done but a couple so maybe someone can add some info.....there is some info on line for auto pumps.....seems this is the only way they mention to improve pump performance......

Yamaha Original Manual gives min and max side clearance.....
.0013-.0031 thousands (.002 sounds reasonable to me)
I spent a good amount of time on this.....not to be in a hurry....
Book did mention 1.37 guart min flow at 1000 rpm....
Looks like at 3000 this thing is putting out something like a gallon a minuite....a lot I would think for a ball bearing engine.....

Actually an easy procedure once the fear factor is overcome..... Shocked

Hope this helps..

xsjohn

xsleo · Posted: January 18, 2009, 1:59 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

i measured with the rotors assembled in the removable case. just like they would be when assembled into the right side engine cover. i use my vernier caliper as a straight edge. layed the straight edge across the case, the .0015 just slips bewtween the outer rotor and the straight edge, a .002 just slips in between the inner rotor and straight edge. so by your yamaha original manual my clearances are in spec. i quess i won't worry to much. on my 82 motor the clearances measure the same, but it looks like it got ran with a hole in the sump filter. a piece of metal , i think it was aluminum, got sent thru the pump and put a couple grooves into the case where the pump bolts to the right side engine case. hard to mearure the depth of the grooves but very noticeable by scratching with a finger nail. would these hurt the function of the oil pump. i was thinkinbg about using this side cover on my 75 engine. it has the oil level window in it.

xsjohn · Posted: January 18, 2009, 2:11 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

Obviously won't help but I wouldn't worry about it........ should feel good about the side clearance........what ever oil goes in those scratches wouldn't be noticed.......

xsjohn

xsleo · Posted: January 18, 2009, 2:20 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

thanks. i kinda like having a site glass for the oil level. when the engine is hot just looking at a site glass is easier then pulling the dip stick.

xs1961 · Posted: January 18, 2009, 8:15 am Post subject: Re: better oil circulation

I wouldnt rely 100% on the sight glass alone , sometimes a pocket of oil can be left sitting in there.. At least the dipsticks telling you exactly whats in the sump !

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