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xs650 > > Motorcycle Systems > > Engine > > Rephase questions.


Rephase questions.
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Srinath
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Joined: Sep 10, 2009
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Location: Charlotte NC

PostPosted: December 10, 2009, 12:41 am    Post subject: Rephase questions.

Can a crank be pulled apart without removing rods etc on the right cyl. Like I want to leave all that intact, and pull just the center section apart.
Also what and how and where is the oil pump in this motor ?
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: December 10, 2009, 1:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

Center is loctited........some advice here..........just get it running.......and I got mine running smoothly for the amount spent of "zero" on that subject................

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weekendrider
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PostPosted: December 10, 2009, 3:51 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

re: the oil pump john gives a great breakdown here
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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 10, 2009, 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

I have the 78 running in the frame (sorta running) carb trouble.
This motor is getting a rephase, just a rephase, no bore, no larger cams nothing. I plan to compare stock vs rephase, and I dont believe I'd get stung for over 50 bucks in terms of actual $, however, I am over 300 bucks in labor I wanna say conservatively ... OK not quite, but will be when I'm done.
I wanna compare stock vs rephase, with no other mods, and when I have it out and apart due to my curiosity more than actual running, why not I think.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 11, 2009, 10:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

OK this thing now has no spark. Carb is fine. It was leaking a bit form the left, but cleaning and whatever has fixed that.
So now I'll toruble shoot it for electrical tommorow ... but had an unrelated question.

Crank bearings, the big ones by the cam chain sproket on the crank, they have an outer race that slides sideways and has tons of movement sideways. Is that normal, or does that mean the crank bearings are bad.

Thanks in advance.

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xsjohn
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PostPosted: December 11, 2009, 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

If the crank is in the engine (cases assembled) and there is movement in and out on the crank (sideways) ...that would indicate to me the R/S bearing is bad or pretty loose......the R/S is the one that stabilizes and holds the crank in place.......and with the crank being out of the engine the roller bearings (2 in the center one on the left) the outer races slip off reasonably easy...............

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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 11, 2009, 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

K thanks, the crank is rolling on the floor right now.
BTW have you seen this tip for yanking the 2 cyls crank 1/2's apart.
www.650motorcycles.com...otches.jpg

Looks easy. How would I press it back in, I can make a 2 rod and 2 bolt jig ... but will that suffice. I may dry ice the center pin before pressing and may do the compressed air can upside down trick before pulling it apart. I dont want to heat it cos I may over cook it. though after 1-2 failures, I may try an oven @ 250-300 ... hope it dont come to that though.

I know one place that has this 300 lb pin in their huge backhoe and they buy a truck full of dry ice whenever they have to re fit it. There is one crazy guy that works there, the very definition of "built like a freight train" and I've seen him pick up that pin. Though they install it with a magnet scrap picker. It goes on rather easywith a 100 degree+ temperature difference.

Anyway, if I pulled it that way and pressed it back in like I am thinking I should, you think I am likely to have it end up not being true @ the ends.

Thanks in advance.

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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 12, 2009, 11:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

Oops, I meant this link.
www.650motorcycles.com...oltNut.jpg

If I sprayed compressed air can upside down into the pin in the right 1/2, and got it to get down to ~30-40 below ambient temp (will take some doing cos we're at 30 or below these days) then I think it will pop out very easy. I think ... lets see how that is in real life.
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yamaman
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PostPosted: December 13, 2009, 7:58 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

Well, I'd have a chat to the crazy bloke with the ho's about his ice supplier! Get in that truckload of ice & all you'll need then is some music! Laughing
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Last edited by yamaman on December 13, 2009, 12:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 13, 2009, 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

The 300 lb pin needs a dump truck of dry ice and they always do it in the peak of summer so its a 100 degrees ambient. There prolly is a 200 degree temp difference and it drop in with just under its own weight.

However I am barely breaking 30 ... And Dry ice will be for reinstalling, not for pulling it apart.

I am making a rig with a square pipe 6 inch across with a 1 inch wide strip removed, a pair of 1.5 inch HT steel square rods and a 20 ton jack and some straps. Lets see how it pans out.

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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 13, 2009, 11:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

OK the score now is, srinath 1, stupid XS650 crank 0.

It is apart ... was a beeeeyatch though, with the nut and bolt method.
www.650motorcycles.com...oltNut.jpg - yea that does work but was not easy.

Anyway I am so stupid ... Had no clue that the pin was part of the crank 1/2. I assumed it came out from both sides.

Next step is to cut the notch and press it back in. The cool thing IMHO ... I didn't disturb the big end rod pins. No worry about it getting loose. BTW how do we make this thing sit in there tighter ?
Cant weld it in can I. Or is there not much risk of this twisting itself out ?

So far rephase cost other than labor seems to be under $20, most of the 5/8th bolts and coupling nuts etc ... man that crap is adding up.

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xsjohn
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PostPosted: December 14, 2009, 12:14 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

The rods are soft......easy to bend sideways if you get them trapped while pressing...........loctite the center.......what about the cam and ignition.........from what I found messing with cams if they are off any and especially toward the advance it runs like S.......even 2 degree advance and artifical leaness occurs......

Often thought that a hard rod through the cam to give it a backbone for the weld but then no advance rod...........always wondered if the 2nd magnet could be placed on the rotor in the right place with the tci and if it would work...one spark being wasted at a non critical place......unknown thinking or lack of after that .........

xsjohn
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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 14, 2009, 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

Didn't touch the rods but before assembly, prolly the crank guy will be checking them for straightness. I pulled it apart with the nut and bolt method. Not in a press. I only pulled the center apart, the rest, bearings and the gears and what not, even the seal on the left side is intact.

The crank will go back together the reverse way, Put plates and tighten bolts on either side. That should be easy. I plan to hit it with freeze spray, though that did a fat lot of good yesterday. Maybe I put the spline 1/2 in the freezer, and the other 1/2 in the oven @300. A good 300 degree gradient should make it pressable easy, and heck allow me to hand press it maybe.

Cam and what not, I am working on it ... but I dont have the points bike's electrical harness ... so the motor is going to get re assembled and wait for its counterpart to show.

I also am not converting my 82 to points, its getting sold as is pretty much.

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Srinath
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PostPosted: December 26, 2009, 6:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Rephase questions.

I finally had a long talk with the guy that's doing my crank.
He is going to weld up the left side pin in first and check it from trueness to the center. Then he'd weld the left 1/2 of the right cyl pin, press it on the center spline lining up the 3 teeth out slot we have cut in the cam sproket and press it on and weld that on. Then line up the 1/2s with the mark he made, yea he made a mark he said with a square when I was not looking so we line it up the way it was. then we true the whole thing end to end then weld the pin in on the right 1/2 of the right cyl.

Now I spoke to hom about teh extra head gasket etc etc. he didn;t know much about as XS but he knew ratcheting quite well. Singles apparently do it a lot.

The idea he had was that the rephase making it a 90 degree or a 83 twin will do a great job to keep the crank from slowing. The thing is, extra head gasket isn't without risks. He suggested I deck the head to get it straight and true. Then he said putting a extra gasket while it does lower compression opens up the possiblity of a leak. Of course lower compresion = less leakage chances, but the flip side is - he thought an extra base gasket is better tahn a head gasket.
Of course my GR leaks at the base gasket so I am not in favor of that at all.

I dunno I think a 8.7 with a rephase should cover any problems with crank slow downs.
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