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xs650 > > Motorcycle Systems > > Engine > > Now the XS wont start.


Now the XS wont start.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 21, 2009, 9:21 pm    Post subject: Now the XS wont start.

The XS ran 1 week ago, and quite well. This was a bike that was parked for years without sparkies in the motor, and had a stuck piston, but all that was sorted out, it turned over, and ran and I did carb clean and swapping of jets etc ...

Now in the last week it sat with near empty tank. Then today I cranked it and it sounded like it wasn't going to start. I then pulled the plugs and cleaned them.
Then I put in a good battery off my savage. Same 14 amp one and that battery is a month old, has not been sitting in the bike at all, I run that same battery on 3 bikes not counting the XS. So its good and powerful.
Then with that battery it still didn't start. So I put a battery charger on it set to the 50 amp setting and then it started. I had it running a while, enough to get it nice and warm.
Then as I proceeded to take off it died.
After that, it is refusing to start and sounding rather anaemic when cranking and that is with the 50 amp schumacher hooked up.
So anyone know what it can be.
Dying starter ?
Worse yet, the bike I can start with 1 kick when its warm. I couldn't do that either, cos the kick starter was acting stuck.
Anyone know what that can be.
Thanks in advance.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 21, 2009, 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

I forgot, its an 82 special which doesn't put out a charge @ the battery, in fact its voltage drops as you rev it.
I also fit a chain on it since last week, and my chain is rather tight ... I plan to correct that tommorow first thing though.
Other than that, nothing else has changed.
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acbanks
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 12:11 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

It's electrical, probably a dead battery at this point. I'd be wary of using a 50 amp jumpbox on that battery...I jump my 1975 with a car but it doesn't have any electronics. I never charge motorcycle batteries at any more than 10amps(for short periods) and 2amp otherwise.

Even to kick start it you need a fully charged battery. Hook up a multimeter with alligator clips and watch your battery voltage. 12.5V is fully charged. Anything below 10V will not fire the coil in my experience(because all the wiring is corroded and you probably have 8V or less by the time it gets to the coil) Unplug the headlight while you're working on it.

The charging problem could be all sorts of things. There's a thread somewhere that gives you a checklist. In my case everything that could be broken was.

Anyway, a good charged battery is step one, and be aware that you're killing the battery every second that bike runs as it is now. Motorcycle batteries don't like to be drained like that. Like I said, hook up a meter and you'll see it dying. Then go through the whole harness/charging system, cleaning connections, verifying grounds, testing components and you'll figure it out.

Oh, and if that oil is old, replace it. Also be aware of gasoline contamination or whatever solvent you used to unstick that piston.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Oil is brand new. The bike has no lights or gauges or nothing on it right now.
Its prolly run the battery dead. Cos even running its not charging. So I guess its not like its problem free otherwise. Thanks man, I am on the parts known to be bad.
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 11:38 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Srinath,

As acbanks said, be careful putting that 50 Amp jump box on the battery, especially when it is completely discharged.

It's possible to cause the battery to boil violently with that much available current. Violently meaning that the battery will explode and spray acid everywhere, including on you, your face and arms and eyes. You could be blinded and disfigured for life.

1. Wear safety goggles and long sleeve shirts when working on the battery with the 50 Amp jump box.

2. If you have kids, keep them out of the garage while you are working on the bike using the 50 Amp jump box.

3. Tell your wife to be ready to dial 911 when you use the 50 Amp jump box. Don't use the jump box if she is not available to dial 911 because you may not be able to. She will know it's time to dial 911 when she hears you scream.

4. Check with the local hospital to see if they have staff on hand to treat acid burns on the weekend. It's a highly specialized skill because acid burns go in very deep and destroy all the tissue cells that the acid encounters.

So, fix the problem and stop using the jump box before you hurt yourself.

I'm just amazed at some of the things people do and live to tell about it..... Sad

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acbanks
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

^Point taken. To be honest I was more concerned with the battery's health, haha.

Here's the thread I was talking about:
xs650temp.proboards.co...hread=3461

Also I had to clean every connection, every bullet splice, every pin in every plug in the entire harness until they shined. I used a slow dremel tool with a a small abrasive tip. Then each got a coat of dielectric grease to slow corrosion. It's a pain, but that's what it took.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 7:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

I better start cleaning up the connections, I ended up breaking the positive battery post today and that got my morning to a crying halt. The rain took care of the rest of the day.
But yes battery getting charged, then I test stuff and then go from there.
It has to charge else I'd never be able to ride it.
Ha ha on the battery and 50 amp jump box. I am yet to fry stuff ... so I am in a good place.
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Srinath,

I think that you miss the point. I was not kidding about serious personal injury with that 50 Amp jumper box.

So, it's not "Cool"...you are going to hurt yourself.

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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

It barely draws 3 amp when not cranking. Cranking it makes it hit the 50 mark. Its of course dependent on the battery's internal resistance which is higher if its more charged ...
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: November 22, 2009, 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Srinath,

If the battery is low, its internal resistance will be low, so when you connect the 50 Amp jumper box it will draw a large amount of current through the battery.

I think that you have just been lucky so far.

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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 10:45 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

pamcopete wrote:
Srinath,

If the battery is low, its internal resistance will be low, so when you connect the 50 Amp jumper box it will draw a large amount of current through the battery.

I think that you have just been lucky so far.

OK I never hook it up to a dead battery at that 50 amp setting. Even so a battery has pretty good internal resistance. The cranking of a motor is likely to send the resistance in that circuit to very low, like 2-3 ohm.
The meter usually runs no more than 10 amp when I have it connected to a battery, usually lower than 2-3 amp, and it will spike to the 50 mark when cranking only.
I have had batteries boil ... they had cells that had a lot of black liquid in them and they developed a dead short in it and I cooked it more and had the cap pop etc. However that is nowadays uncommon. Cos I first use my optimate and desulphate and test the battery first. Unless its good and just down on charge I dont hook it to the jump box and I never put a dead battery in my bike.
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 12:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Srinath,

A 14AH battery is supposed to be charged with 10% of it's rating, or 1.4 Amps. Any current in excess of 1.4 amps is converted into heat.

If you have seen as much as 10 amps with the 50 amp jumper box on a low battery, then about 8.6 amps is being converted into heat. If the jump box is putting out 12 volts then approximately 8.6 X 12 103 Watts of heat energy has to be dissipated in the electrolyte of each cell or103 / 6 = 17 watts per cell.

Like I said, I think that you have been lucky so far, so perhaps this discussion will alert some other member to the danger of using a high capacity battery charger or jumper box on a dead battery in their bike.

I also do not under stand your comment that you have experienced having the cell cap pop off but "that is nowadays uncommon". The design of the battery in the XS650 uses the same technology as was used since the beginning of electric start automobiles in the early 1900's. Nothing has changed, so having a cell cap "pop off" or the cell cracking open is still a real possibility.

Not cool,
pete

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shaydaddy
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 1:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Aside from the charging issue you probably burnt out the two resistors on your TCI box that drive the coils. I had this happen earlier this year when I tried to jump off of a car like an idiot. Took forever to figure out what the resistor specs were so I could replace them. after I did bike started like brand new. look inside your TCI box It will be obvious if thats your proble as you see burn marks on the board.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Pamcopete: The batteries I am using on all the bikes XS included are all sealed. I had a non sealed battery that I ran the charger on max setting without ever even checking how it was originally and it had a black cell. It was many years ago but that cell caused the cap to pop off after an hour.
The 1.4 amp is ideal charge rate isn't it. The bike constantly runs off a good bit more when you're running 2500-5K rpm. Or, a bike with a permanent magnet like most other bike I have would wont it.

Shaydaddy: I dont believe I blew anything. Its still starting, I just am not getting it to charge, and that has made it kill off a battery after just 20 mins of idling and that in turn has got it so it wont crank it over past that.
I got ground issues so I am going to fix that, then see what is causing it to not charge the battery, then go from there I guess.

The battery is capable of 150+ or so CCA's if I remember. Below that the bike will not spin fast enough to start. In fact I believe its closer to 200 with a older bike like an XS. The jump charger puts out a max of 50 amp. I dont think a marginal battery with a jump charger to help it along is capable of burning up stuff unless it already had a short in it. Of course car batteries are capable of over 1000 cca's. All bets are off ... and I have not hooked up a car to this ever.

I will charge the battery fit up all the stuff right and get back to the problem at hand.
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royfisk
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

key words here you have ground issues. Fix them , might find the electrical system actually works. Why would any one go through all this knowing they have ground issues, over and over??? Most electrical problams are ground issues. If it dont work try a 200 amp booster pac.
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 8:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

200 amp ... yea right. I am enough trouble for running a 50 amp ...

ight as well try a stick of dynamite.

I know dude I am sorry.
The severity of the problem was only apparent when the positive terminal fell apart when I was trying to swap the battery out for a better one ...

Yea sorry, I'm a big fat idiot.

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pamcopete
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Srinath,

Well, the other issue is that you should not promote techniques or work arounda that are potentially hazardous or destructive.

The use of a 50 Amp charger is an example. You managed to use it without any damage, but others may not be so lucky.

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Last edited by pamcopete on November 24, 2009, 7:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: November 23, 2009, 11:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

This makes me so glad my bike is set up the way it is ........read somewhere you plan to hop it up....remembering this post in the future you will wish you hadn't made that decision........it already produces more heat than can be easily dissapated......and the stock engine ratchets way to much already.......the best advice I can give is if you want a hot rod buy a bigger bike....

Actually as far as tuning it works out better in the long run to go the other way just a bit......will run forever and be much more pleasant to ride.....ah what would I know after 45 years of this kind of thing......

xsjohn
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 24, 2009, 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Pamcopete: The 50 amp setting is just for starting, I dont charge with that setting. It also has a 2 amp and I dont even charge @ that, I have a optimate that puts out 1/2 amp. That is the usual, I have another one that is a 1 amp and that is my back up.

If I sense the battery is going and its really 1/4th of the battery's capacity cos I believe the battery I have is right at 190 amp CCA and it starts to give signs that its going too slow, I hook that up to sorta boost it. Even so, a few more cranks and its dead even wiht that 50 amp kick in the pants.

XSjohn: This is a stock bike as far as I know (though I suspect its been worked over by a previous miscreant.

I dont performance mod unless its broken. I mod them for longevity and ease of maintenance as well as a reduction of maintenance. It has to shed heat, not break stuff as things heat up and it has to give off plenty of warning before failure and any performance increase is a side effect.

I rejet bikes (mainly GS500's) to run cool, start better and run without trouble (pinging and misfiring) and often people say they got better power with a smaller main. And no I dont jet it so rich that it will do a cyl wall washout either. And to get better performance out of a GS500, I have got a great solution. Stuff a GR650 motor in the thing.

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xsjohn
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PostPosted: November 24, 2009, 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Wasn't talking about jetting when I said a bit in the other way .....was talking about compression which is what causes heat and all the ratcheting...........ah...
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 24, 2009, 11:02 am    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

What do you mean by ratcheting ?

I am not building up a motor that is running, its gotta be dead to have me get that sorta effort on. Someone may have in the past done the thing. But hey, I aint opening it to check.
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: November 24, 2009, 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

When you get it to where you think it's running good then watch the tack needle.....the jumping needle .....they all probably do it...but that is not a good thing....the crank speeds and slows on every revolution ....ratcheting...........that is what keeps these things from running smoothly and kills longivity ....causes chain snatch and tears up clutches and cam chains and everything else........xsjohn

Last edited by xsjohn on November 24, 2009, 3:09 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Srinath
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PostPosted: November 24, 2009, 3:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Aaah, good to know its called ratcheting, OK I'll watch for that. Now how to fix it, would a rephase be needed ... though that is balance, not for this.
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: November 24, 2009, 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Don't know about rephase....have never done that due to the expense...I have balanced one crank and it was a waste of 400 bucks as far as I am concerned.....but slightly lowering the compressions eliminated 90 percent of that on mine..........nobody wants to talk about a bit less power though...didn't loose enough on mine to even be concerned and the positives are that it runs like an engine should.....Mine will never be any other way now that I have experienced it..........very smooth......I ride too much to not have that.........

xsjohn
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