Now, no spark?

pumps · Posted: July 1, 2009, 8:47 pm Post subject: Now, no spark?

Today I had been washing the engine cylinder fins and case trying to get old oil leaks cleaned up. Funny how when my van's in the shop and I can't go anywhere the XS calls to me. I wasn't blasting it with water and I didn't think it got very wet.It sat an hour in the driveway after. I tried to start it and it sputtered and ran for a second but died. Now it only cranks. Is it possible I shorted out the coil or the Pamco? I'm getting 13 volts at the red/white on the coil. No spark either side, grounded a plug against the cylinder. 2.6-2.7 ohms on the coil terminals which I think is within specs...Using the black dual high output replacement ignition coil from mikes .What should it be on the green? Pamco looks ok.....

Retiredgentleman · Posted: July 2, 2009, 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Pumps;
Send Pamcopete a PM, he may have missed reading this post.

pumps · Posted: July 2, 2009, 11:49 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Done.

pamcopete · Posted: July 2, 2009, 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

pumps,

Sorry I missed you post last night. It must have gotten pushed off the current posts this morning. RG's post pushed it back out.

I have taken my bike to the car wash and used engine cleaner and high pressure water without a problem, but there is always a first time.

However, it's possible that you got the spark plugs wet. That coil puts out a pretty high voltage, so even a little water will caus it to conduct through the water instead of across the gap.

Unless some water got into the housing for the PAMCO, there should not have been a problem with washing the engine. If some water did get into the housing and is trapped between the PC board and the plate, that could be a problem, so if you have an air supply, just squirt a little air between the PC board and the plate.

Could be just a coincidence that you were washing it when it quit, so try this procedure to see if it is the PAMCO.

1. Remove the PAMCO rotor.
2. Remove the locating pin in the advance rod.
3. Reinstall the rotor, but without the pin.
4. Replace the nut holding the rotor on loosely. This will allow you to spin the rotor to produce a spark without having to turn the engine over.
5. Connect one of the spark plug wires to a spark plug that is grounded to the engine, but not installed in the engine.
6. Make sure that the other spark plug wire is connected to a spark plug in the engine.
7. Turn on the ignition switch and the kill switch.
8. Spin the rotor while looking at the gap in the spark plug for a spark.
9. Turn off the kill switch and the ignition switch.

pamcopete · Posted: July 2, 2009, 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Just thought I'd keep it up here where pumps can see it...

pumps · Posted: July 2, 2009, 8:49 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Ok. I have a washing machine to repair when I get off duty in the morning before I go home but I'll get after it. Thanks fellas!

pumps · Posted: July 3, 2009, 7:56 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Ok did as requested. Grounded a plug with a wire and a hose clamp. Removed the fender washer, nut and lock washer and pulled out the rod. Removed the locating pin from the rod...actually it removed itself falling on the floor and damn near didn't find them...both sides fell out.. Reinstalled the rotor and ignition on and rotated the rotor manually. I did hear a slight sparking although I could barely see it even when I turned off the light. Not a nice fat one like I expected. Weak would be my description. So I assume the Pamco plate sensor is triggering as it is supposed to? Yes? Weak spark might be the coil?

xsleo · Posted: July 3, 2009, 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Your coil connections may have gotten wet. Try checking for water in the connections. Just a guess here.

pamcopete · Posted: July 3, 2009, 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Well, what was your battery voltage when you did the test?
Use the maximum scale on the Ohmeter to measure the cap to cap resistance. Should be 23K Ohms. That also verifies that the caps are good and there is not an open wire.

You could also have a bad kill switch, which would be stressed even more by the higher current for the electronic ignition. So, after doing the above tests, try running a jumper directly from the positive battery terminal to the positive coil conneciotn and PAMCO red wire. Leave the kill switch OFF when doing this test.

When doing any of these tests, do not leave the ignition on for any length of time without the engine running as that will heat up the coil.

pumps · Posted: July 3, 2009, 9:04 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Off hand I don't know the battery voltage during the test but it has been on the tender still and the last check it was 13 something.

pumps · Posted: July 3, 2009, 10:53 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Ok almost 23k cap to cap according to the Fluke.

Did the jumper from the hot on the battery to the red/hot side of the coil.Key off . The neutral light came on. Kinda surprised me. Spark still seems weak.
Rereading your instructions Pete I can't remember if I had the kill switch off or not. I'll double check it tomorrow.

pamcopete · Posted: July 4, 2009, 6:41 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Well, here is a video of the spark on my test rig using a coil from a '80 to '81 model, which is similar to the 17-6803 coil. If you listen closley, you can also hear it sparking:

If your spark is similar, and the other tests seem to be OK, then perhaps there is nothing wrong with the ignition system.

If so, then I suggest that you button it back up and see what happens. If you are still having problems, then PM your address and I will send you a new PAMCO.

The video may jump around on the first play. Pay it again for a better result.

Retiredgentleman · Posted: July 4, 2009, 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Pumps, here's my bike doing some sparking, for comparison.

pumps · Posted: July 4, 2009, 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

When I was rotating it by hand I could hear the clicking but could barely see it. Even turning it over with the starter I couldn't hardly see it. I'll see if I can video it. I don't think it's enough to show even.

pamcopete · Posted: July 4, 2009, 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

pumps,

If you can hear it, that means it's arcing and developing enough heat to cause the sound by vaporizing the moisture in the air.

The two plugs are in series from the coil, so if either plug is not arcing, it will affect both, so have a look at both plugs.

pumps · Posted: July 4, 2009, 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Ok checked the other side...nothing I can see. Even turned out the light and cranked it. I'm not seeing anything at all. Volts indicated @13.28. Before I was seeing a very small weak spark but now nothing.

pamcopete · Posted: July 4, 2009, 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

pumps,

OK. If I can try your patience for just one more test, then if this doesn't help, just PM your address and I will send you a new unit.

The PAMCO works by alternatly turning the coil on and off. If you measure the voltage at the positive terminal of the coil when there is no current flowing, then you will read battery voltage. However, if you measure the voltage when the coil is turned on, it will be less than battery voltage by the amount dropped across the ignition switch and the kill switch.

So, just a simple test. With the ignition and kill switch on, measure the voltage at the positive terminal of the coil as you rotate the rotor. You should see a very slight decrease in voltage as the coil is turned on. Perhaps no more than 0.5 volt.

pumps · Posted: July 4, 2009, 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Question , do I turn it by hand? Or use the starter....seems like it would change too fast using the starter. You're not trying my patience. It won't run right now anyway as I have the petcocks off and am ready to place a mikes order to get a couple things. Petcock nipples, tail light lense, fork gaiters and whatever else is on my list....If you do end up sending one, send it the cheap way. Time is not an issue right now.

pamcopete · Posted: July 4, 2009, 11:13 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

pumps,

I'm sorry...I had already suggested that you try a jumper directly from battery to the positive terminal on the coil, so If you did that test, then this one is not necessary.

Just PM me and I'll get a new unit to you Monday.

pumps · Posted: July 4, 2009, 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

Ok done. 13 volts at the Pos side of the coil. Rotated it by hand , no change AND no sound or spark.before I had a teeny bit..

pumps · Posted: July 11, 2009, 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

I've got the new plate with me here at work and am going to solder new connectors onto the red, green and black. I'd like to shorten the leads some but I'm here at work, no one home at my house (like they would understand what I'm asking for) and I need a measurement.....

pamcopete · Posted: July 11, 2009, 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

pumps,

While you are at it, wire in an inline fuse for the coil and the PAMCO red wire. You can put it under the seat for easy acess. Install a 7 1/2 Amp fuse.

pumps · Posted: July 11, 2009, 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

The way it I had it before was the small red wire went into the double female connector from the harness and I fabbed up a red #14 wire from the other half of the double female to the coil. So put a fuse in that wire? Dammit I don't have any extra stuff here....Only brought what I thought I would need. I'll have to figure out how I want to run it then and get some stuff at the auto parts store. Got a picture on how you did yours? I guess I'll solder the small red wire and the fused hot wire from the harness together in a spade connector to go on the coil? Run a loop out to a fuse under the seat then back to the coil and try to make it look purty. Good thing I bought a new pack of heat shrinks. Nevermind about a measurement.

pamcopete · Posted: July 11, 2009, 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Now, no spark?

pumps,

Sorry...just thought a fuse would be a good idea to prevent the PAMCO from frying if something happened to the coil.

So, take the red wire from the PAMCO and anothe red wire crimped or soldered into a female spade connector connected to the coil.

Run that red wire to an inline fuse holder under the seat and through the fuse holder back to one of the red/white wires from the harness. Put a 7 1/2 Amp fude in the fuse holder.

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