Oil sump off... couple questions...

TeeCat

Hi, guys...

Well, my oil sump came off without too much trouble... just a few whacks with a wooden dowel and a carving mallet. The strainer was torn in the typical spot, as expected, but I was very happy that there appears to be no trace of metallic or plastic material. Questions, though:

1. There were three lock washers, one on each of the bolts that retain the sump strainer. But there was one other washer in there, a copper one that's got as 9/16 outer diameter... looks like a compression washer. It was undamaged... not split or anything, but looks like it has been used. What is it and where might it have come from? I can't imagine that I'd have lost it internally because there's no accompanying bolt, and my bike seems to be mechanically pretty quiet. Think someone might have left it in the sump somehow? I can't swear that someone hasn't been into this motor before despite its mere 18,000 miles. Seems to me that if something had spit out that washer, I'd know it by now. Rolling Eyes

2. I need to clean the old black gasket off the plate and clean up- the mating surface a little. Is there a good solvent or means of doing that without damaging the surfaces?

Thanks.

TC

Retiredgentleman

TeeCat;
I think you can find almost anything in the bottom of these bikes. The PO's have lost or dropped washers, etc., down through the years. An example is the washer on the bottom of the tach driveshaft. If a PO pulls the tachdrive outward from the case, the washer on the bottom falls into the sump.

Here's a tip from 5twins. Paint stripper is very good to soften old gaskets. Allow a few minutes for it to eat into the gasket,and then gently scrape off.

TeeCat

Quote::

I think you can find almost anything in the bottom of these bikes. The PO's have lost or dropped washers, etc., down through the years. An example is the washer on the bottom of the tach driveshaft. If a PO pulls the tachdrive outward from the case, the washer on the bottom falls into the sump.

Thanks for responding, RG. Smile

Well, that might be what it is! In any case, I'm going to have a beer tonight because I didn't find any other naughty crap in there! Razz

As luck would have it... paint stipper's what I'll use! The outside of the plate is painted black and I'm just going to clean the whole thing with stripper then.

Thanks... back to work...

TC

TeeCat

Okay, all buttoned up with a new gasket and clean mating surfaces. I torqed the bolts to 7 ft lbs and used a bit of thread sealer (NOT loctite) as someone recommended.

Is it a good idea to re-torque after a few heat cycles? I'll watch for leaks as this is the first time I have ever pulled the sump. Again... thrilled to have found no naughtiness in there.

Thanks to all who helped.

TC

Retiredgentleman

No need to re-torque and if the surfaces were cleaned well there should not be any leaks.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

deleted

pamcopete

Well, I think that the main cause of the blown sump filter is high RPM's when the engine is cold and the oil is thick, producing high oil pressure and attendant low presure (suction) in the sump. I can see the high pressure (14 PSI) with my oil pressure gauge, and I warm up the engine keeping the pressure below 10 PSI or less before exceeding 2500 RPM. I actually use the oil pressure gauge for my shift point instead of the tach.

I replaced the sump screen in my '78/E shortly after I bought it in '96. I installed the oil pressure gage at the same time and kept the RPM's and pressure low when starting out. The reinforced screens were not available when i replaced it, so the new screen was just a Yamaha OEM part.

That was 13 years ago. Last year I inspected the screen and it was still intact. I had a spare OEM filter so I replaced it anyway, but it really didn't need replacement after 12 years and 60,000 miles.

TeeCat

Guys, I still have it (it's in the trash bin but still retrievable), but it's not reinforced. As Pete references, I have a conservative throttle hand and maybe I'll get another spare and reinforce that in the weak spots, but first I'll see how this one holds.

Do you guys inspect these every change? I might want to keep some gaskets on hand. I cleaned the surface really well and am hoping for a leakless reassembly.

TC

nudude53

TC,
I check my sump filter once a year, but then again I don't ever get near the redline.

pamcopete

nudude53

Well, the problem occurs way before red line. The pressure bypass in the oil filter screen is supposed to open at 14 PSI, but there is no practical way to test or set the bypass, so it's possible that the bypass doesn't open at 14 PSI, but at a much higher pressure, thus exceeding the limits for the sump screen.

On my bike, I removed the bypass spring and ball and replaced them with a threaded stud, so i don't have a bypass, but I do have a pressure gauge. This allows me to monitor the pressure as it would be with a bypass that doesn't open when it is supposed to.

A cold engine will develop as much as 20 PSI at 3,000 RPM's. So, I keep an eye on the gauge and do not let it get above 14 PSI and in fact keep it below 10 PSI until the engine warms up, after which it will not exceed 10 PSI and that is what I believe is the secret to a long life for the sump screen.

If you do not have an oil pressure gauge, then, generally, keep the revs below 3,000 RPM for the first few miles after a cold start and perhaps your sump screen will last 12 years.

nudude53

Thanks Pete:
I was reading your earlier post on the pressure problem and got to thinking about the way I run my bike. I will let it warm up at the lowest idle possible on the first start of the day until I can actually feel the heat from the engine before I take off, about 5 mins or so. Even at that when I ride I usually shift at around 3500 rpms, so I'm pretty sure that I'm not hurting the engine. About the only time I'll stretch it out is when I have to jump on the interstate and merge with traffic, but that is very rarely. Most of the time I'm ususally puttering around on the back roads so that I can actually enjoy the ride. Cruising speed for me is 3100 rpm @ 55mph with a 17/32 drive set-up so I'm fairly sure that the engine is not being stressed much at all. I do like the idea of an oil pressure gauge though, and you have planted a seed in my mind about that. In fact while I was out riding this afternoon I kept glancing at the gauge cluster to try to get an idea where to mount the OP gauge. Perhaps you should get with the vault guys and work up a thread on your set up and the sender location, that would be some very helpful information to post on here. As far as the bypass valve and spring being removed, if it's the one that holds the stock screen in the clutch cover I have already removed that and replaced the filter with the Mikesxs oil cooler and paper filter set-up. I've always had my doubts about the efficiency of the stock oil screen filtering the oil due to the large pores in the screen.
In the meantime I'll be camped out by the mailbox waiting for my Pamco system to show up, then I'll start seriously thinking about noodling with that gauge.

pamcopete · Last edited by pamcopete on June 22, 2009, 8:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

nudude53,

Well, on my '81/H I removed the igntiion switch and mounted the oil pressure gauge in it's place. I think you could do something similar with a pre '80 model if you use a 1 1/2" gauge like the one I used.

I tapped into the oil screen cavity:

I moved the ignition switch to the left side below the tank:

Not much use in staring at the key after you have started the bike.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

nudude53

Pete,
y ignition is where your OP gauge is, should be no problem mounting it in the same area as your turn indicator light, I have no panel ('73 model).
I had no idea that the gauge was so small, won't be in the way anywhere I put it. Is it mechanical or electronic, and where did you get it from?

xsjohn

You guys are going to be looking at all your guages and run slap into something..........it's not an airplane....John Kennedy Jr was staring at his guages when he hit the sea......what if he had looked up.......Hummm

If you are going to fast you crash..........
If you are going to slow someone runs over you.......
If your oil pressure fails it blows.............
If your charging system quits you are on the side of the road....

Don't forget to put gas in it............Oh and check the oil..... Laughing

xsjohn

pamcopete · Last edited by pamcopete on June 22, 2009, 9:08 pm; edited 3 times in total

The gauge is a VDO "Mini-Gauge" part number 153-006. Just Google the part number for sources. The gauge is mechanical and works with a 1/8" nylon line connected to a fitting on the filter screen cover. I will probably move the tap to one of the galley holes in the front of the wet side cover next time I have a reason to remove the cover.

Northern Tool has a similar liquid filled gauge for about $15.

To mount the gauge, I used a section of radiator hose with a 1 1/2" inside diameter. Drilled a couple of holes in the side of the hose. You have to have something like that as a vibration dampener.

Here is the tap into the screen cover:

Retiredgentleman

I believe Pete is correct in saying we need to keep the rpm's low until the oil heats up. I always try to allow time for the engine to warm up before I ride.

Another thing that comes to mind is the grade of oil. Us riders in the cooler areas can use 15W-40, and that may flow easier through the strainers and filters. However, if you live down south, you may need the 20W-50.

dpmphoto

Anyone know what's up with all these oil filter locations that people are using. I've seen a bike with a screw on filter on the sump plate and I've also seen one right near the bottom of the oil delivery tube(but not actually hooked to the delivery pipe)could this be a filter/cooler? Am I missing something, is there a better system out there to filter our oil and we don't know about it,many of these mods I'm seeing are from across the pond and I have to say they do ok over there. I'll try to find those pics,but chances are slim because I have about 1000 pics of peoples xs's

nudude53 · Last edited by nudude53 on June 22, 2009, 11:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

An external oil cooler is a good idea. Anything that will cool the engine is one of the best mods that you can make. But steer clear of the spin-on sump filters, you're begging for disaster with that thing hanging down under your bike like a goat scrotum. A simple speed bump could knock it off, and there you sit.

nudude53

pamcopete wrote:

I will probably move the tap to one of the galley holes in the front of the wet side cover next time I have a reason to remove the cover.

Pete:
That was my next question. The resin plugged casting hole under the tach drive?

xjwmx

My screen was torn in the usual place but someone had repaired it with what looks like the clear resin part of the resin / cloth kit you use to repair fiberglas car bodies. It's an impressive looking job. Looks very neat and strong.

pamcopete

nudude53

Exactly. I used one of those for the oil cooler on my faithful '78/E

I used a 1/4-18 NPT tap.

Returned the oil from the cooler to the filter screen cover:

The main reason that I installed an oil cooler on my '78/E is becasue it has a Kerker 2 into 1 tuned exhaust that has the header pipes going under the oil sump. This had a tendancy to heat up the oil in the sump, so I installed a cooler to compensate.

nudude53

Thanks so much for all the info Pete, I think I'll start gauge shopping today.

TeeCat:
Didn't mean to hi-jack your thread buddy, Pete just got my tail wagging with that OP gauge idea.

xsleo

As far as the spin on filter on the sump plate, On mine it barley sticks below the side stand mount. Have you ever dragged the sidestand on any thing? I haven't. Well the center stand gets dragged now and then in a left turn.

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Yamaha xs650