GM Bankruptcy and employee benefits

Razar · Posted: June 7, 2009, 8:04 am Post subject: GM Bankruptcy and employee benefits

This post is probably going to get the more rabid anti-socialists amongst us here somewhat riled up, but here goes. Time to talk some sense.

I've just watched a program on GM's inability to continue to fund employee pension and health insurance schemes. This is a big problem for current and former employees that have planned their lives with the assumption that these benefits would continue indefinately.

Unfortunately for them, in a globalized economy, American companies have to compete with products that are made by companies that do not provide such benefits. This of course makes them uncompetetive.

As far as I understand the situation, this applies to most employees, and the unemployed or ones that do not have company scemes are in deep s***. This is not the case in countries like Australia that have government pension and health schemes. We also have private and industry pension funds and health insurance that can provide a better level of benefit, but must be paid for privately ( there are some tax benefits for this). The important thing here though is that the risk/cost of these government schemes is spread across the whole comunity, thus protecting people from the resultant loss of benefits from company collapses etc, and also reduces the direct cost to employers, thus making them more competitive.

These are not just some idiological ideas but well thought out systems that aid the welfare of the population and the viability of business. I would say in fact that to have objections to this sort of arrangement from some idealogical view, borders on the irrational.

I can hear some people saying"I aint paying for somebody elses slackness or misfortune." The truth of the matter is that you would be paying for your own. It's just insurance, same as any policy, the risk is spread around. And with the government holding the pot the risk of default is minimal. How many "rock solid" financial companies have gone to the wall in this current financial crisis?

I must admit to having personal experience with the benefits of a government health sceme. When I was 25 I contracted a life threatening condition ( Guillian Barre Syndrome) that put me in hospital for about 6 months and necessitated another 18months of rehabilitation and treatment including major throat surgery to repair some damage caused by long term ventilator dependency.
Rather than bankrupt me, the treatments I recieved cost me not a cent. I have compared this to US citizens that I have corresponded with that have also had this illness. They have had their treatments cut short when their insurance ran out. Or been virtually forced into bankruptcy. Not a great thing when your fighting for your life.
It seems to me that at last this financial crisis has given the US a chance (with the aid of a sympathetic President) to come to it's senses and provide the benefits of a civilised society to ALL of it's people, not just the rich and the fortunate.

There you go, lets debate this. If you think it makes sense, use your right as a citizen to push your politians to do something about it.

kingwj

I think John's head just exploded. I work with a retired GM worker who last week lost his vision and dental benefits from GM, can health care insurance be next? Union sold out the retirees. Sucks big time, especially since he has had a stroke and cannot get other insurance at any price. It seems as if the folks against global health care typically have a financial stake in the fight or are the sheeple who believe whatever the conservative radio commentators tell them to believe.

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

My own position could best be described as "libertarian socialist". I believe it is possible to have things such as socialized medicine and socialized retirement programs -- exactly the thing that Razar is talking about -- while at the same time we enjoy and maintain our civil liberties.

Problem here in the States is that Big Money, working through the right-wing press, the television networks, and the two major political parties, shout down anything that smacks of socialism as a Communist plot to take over America. They've been engaged in this sort of behavior for at least a hundred years, ever since the Pullman Strike, really. No living American can remember a time when we weren't subjected to this brainwash. Few living Americans understand that it IS brainwash. At least half of all Americans now accept it as Gospel. The reality is Fascism thinly disguised as a representative democracy.

Now, with the collapse of its corporate engines, Fascism finds itself at risk. Left in the lurch by their corrupt corporate overlords, the American worker begins to realize that people in civilized nations don't live this way. People in Australia, Canada, the UK, in France, Germany, in Sweden and other civilized societies enjoy universal healthcare and a social welfare network. Americans see, further, that those programs are permanent fixtures. They do not exist at risk of destruction by corporate greed-heads bent on stealing the money to finance their latest, crack-brained military adventure. Increasingly, Americans see the benefits of socialized medicine and social welfare systems and want the same for themselves.

Still, corporate opposition persists. Where it doesn't rely on propaganda and election fraud, it takes more subtle shapes: The latest schemes coming from our supposedly "progressive" Congress -- supposedly "universal health-care plans" -- are fig leaves that cover corporate profiteering. President Obama, supposedly a champion of reform, has named Montana Sen. Max Baucus and Iowa Sen. Charles Grassley to study the issue and recommend legislation. Sadly, I note that both Grassley and Baucus have been life-long whores for the banking and insurance industries and other big-money players. Any plan they come up with is going to rely heavily on insurance companies to pay for our healthcare and, of course, government money to reimburse the insurance companies. They're also going to want money out-of-pocket from anyone who actually uses the "universal" benefit. Any plan they come up with, therefore, is going to be increasingly expensive year on year and will collapse in a very short time as a result. The Baucus/Grassley plan is NOT socialized medicine but is instead a scheme to line the pockets of their corporate benefactors.

Obama surely knows all of that. Were he serious about reform he would have gone outside the beltway for the best minds in the country instead or relying on whores like Baucus and Grassley. Thus the anti-American, supposedly socialist president that rabid, right-wing Americans fear so much is actually just one of the boys -- another country-club Republican dressed in a donkey suit, acting the part of a liberal Democrat when in fact there are no liberals left in the Democratic Party.

Obama's healthcare reform will look like Obama's banking reform: Men in grey suits will drive endloaders into the U.S. treasury. They will scoop up giant buckets full of newly minted cash and load it onto freight cars. When the train is fully loaded, the grey suits will park their endloaders, get on the train, and ride away to some undisclosed location. We the people will be told that we have to suck it up and foot the bill.

There is no pushing our politicians. Corporate money talks louder than any number of letters to the editor and e-mails to Congress. Our system is so thoroughly corrupt that I no longer believe in it. Without a qualm I confidently state that the present US government cannot be reformed. Short of a violent revolution by the American people, Fascism will persist in America unless and until the rest of the world comes here and does for America what America and the world did for Germany and Japan in 1945. Others can say what they will. For the next few years we'll all hide and watch and see who was right.

jayel

kingwj wrote:

Union sold out the retirees. .

that's what the union gets for thinking they had a contract, anytime you're presented with a take this or nothing choice it makes for tough decisions, big business has gotten away with this BS for years, and the govt. lets them do it legally

nj1639

It's all progressive slavery.

yamaman

We live in a great country Razar, and we are exremely fortunate for it!
It seems there's going to be a hell of a lot of people left out in the cold in the U.S. So I hope some positive change happens there sooner rather than later!

The middle ground is very difficult to find, between Socialism & Capitalism (and all the other 'isms). I think Australia is as close as anywhere else is to it & I'm grateful for that! It's simply not healthy to be at either end of that scale. Probably not good to spend too much time stuck on any part of the scale either, as the world turns and we head on the voyage towards "The Ultimate Complexity"!

Globalism (more bloody 'isms) is what bought down Fordism. Mass manufacturing is simply handed down to the lowest bidder! No room for sentimentality or niceties!

Technology is the only thing left to keep the Western world afloat, dare I say it "Techism"! This is where all the current smart money is!

From Karl Marx to Henry Ford is a very interesting line, should anyone wish to check it out!

xjwmx

Socialized medicine eliminates an industry where peoples' lives are held hostage. That industry is morally reprehensible - would be illegal in any other context. It's distinctly different from govt. taking over other kinds of business.

xsjohn

Problem is a broke country will just push the debt ahead to their children who will be crushed by the debt.........the road to hell is always paved with good intentions...........we are going to loose our country from debt......if not already....

The Hospitals are truly bandits I agree there for sure.........and I have no idea what is going to fix that......attack maybe.... Shocked

xsjohn

xjwmx

Auditing for accountability and prioritizing spending is the answer. Theoretically.

xsjohn

And all the idiots that enjoy throwing themselves off a skateboard at 35 miles per hour and all the other idiots destroying their bodies cause it is the extreme cool thing to do will all come back to haunt us with all the medical expenses....and dissabilities.......accidents happen but now a days it's the cool thing to do.........

Seems our enemies are staying buff and getting ready.....while we eat fast food amd stay drunk......wonder how all that is going to pan in the end...which history records....not a good scenario I would think..........

xsjohn

yamaman

xsjohn wrote:

And all the idiots that enjoy throwing themselves off a skateboard at 35 miles per hour and all the other idiots destroying their bodies cause it is the extreme cool thing to do will all come back to haunt us with all the medical expenses....and dissabilities.......accidents happen but now a days it's the cool thing to do.........xsjohn

Don't forget all those stupid people getting old, dumb ass war veterans, crazy former car industry employees and their families & of course crazy motorcyclists!

Seriously John, how many people ride skate boards in the US at all, let alone at 35mph? 1 in 1000 maybe? Then 1 in 100 of them is a total lunatic.........Thats 3000 people out of 300,000,000

xsjohn

Where is Jimmy when I need him......... Laughing

And I didn't have space to list all the classifications of idiots.....and I'm sure I would fit into a few myself.......... Laughing

xsjohn

jayel

xsjohn wrote:

wonder how all that is going to pan in the end...which history records....not a good scenario I would think..........

xsjohn

that's the nice thing about it john, the winners write the history ......

nj1639

Not so much a question of affordable health insurance but affordable health care. Big difference.
We can view the world from our life starting point of view and current events or we can take the time to study the history of how and why we're where we are. One of these takes time, work and understanding, the other can be spoon fed. I'd rather starve on the history than be spoonfed the bullshirt.
Who said,
"Those that would give up their freedom for security deserve neither."
Off the Fed Amerika!

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

xsjohn wrote:

Where is Jimmy when I need him......... Laughing

xsjohn

I'm right here, John. I've been analyzing your brilliant posts:

xsjohn wrote:

Problem is a broke country will just push the debt ahead to their children who will be crushed by the debt.........the road to hell is always paved with good intentions...........we are going to loose our country from debt......if not already....

The Hospitals are truly bandits I agree there for sure.........and I have no idea what is going to fix that......attack maybe.... Shocked:lol: xsjohn

Translation -- Problem is we can't do anything about the problem. We'll just leave it to our children to fix. Our nation is in peril.

The hospitals and doctors are thieves. I have no idea what to do.

xsjohn wrote:

And all the idiots that enjoy throwing themselves off a skateboard at 35 miles per hour and all the other idiots destroying their bodies cause it is the extreme cool thing to do will all come back to haunt us with all the medical expenses....and dissabilities.......accidents happen but now a days it's the cool thing to do.........

Seems our enemies are staying buff and getting ready.....while we eat fast food amd stay drunk......wonder how all that is going to pan in the end...which history records....not a good scenario I would think..........xsjohn

Translation: The problem is caused by idiots on skateboards who try to kill themselves. We have to pay their medical bills and it's bankrupting the nation. Trying to kill yourself is a cool thing to do these days.

We eat fast food and stay drunk while our enemies get fit and prepare to kill us. Our nation is in peril. I wonder what history will say.

I wouldn't think you'd be worried about what history will say of us, John. You've never read a history book in your life and you've already told us how you flush your brain down the toilet every morning.

xsjohn

Guess if my bike didn't run and I didn't know how to fix it I would be frustrated too....... Laughing

xsjohn

Razar

Now now boys, let's not get into name calling.

As to the cost to the country; if anything, the costs go down. In OZ we have a subsidised drug program as well, that gives the government the ability to degotiate down the prices of various pharmaceuticals. The big drug companies hate it. Must be a good thing.

And the cost in any system is born by the population. It's just that in our system the rich pay a little more than the poor (not as much as you think cause they can afford good accountants) but the real benefit for the individual is the spreading around of the risk/cost. One year it might be my turn to claim, next year someboby else gets to spend my tax input. It's standard insurance practice, but whithout the profit surcharge that the private insurers add on top. Overall it SAVES the country money,keeps the population healthier and happier which aids productivity and also helps to prevent minor medical conditions that are cheap to deal with from progressing to major problems that are both expensive and life threatening. And BEST of all it stops people being financially ruined by illness, at a time when they are unable to do anything about it.

I think that a clear indication of how well the US system works, is the vitriol so many of you heap upon your government.
Nuff said. Please continue.

xsjohn

Jimmy....why is it that when you translate things I say it is always spun and usually not what I was trying to say.........Why don't you go F yourself........you stupid ass76656>.......

And I never said I crap all I knew.....I said I crap all you know you fat spinning bastard...........

xsjohn

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

John -- I challenge you to find just one of my "translations" that distorts your meaning in the least way. Please demonstrate with concrete examples without throwing in any obscene gibberish.

The rest of you -- See how it is here, now. That's how it is here, always.

John asks for my input: "Where is Jimmy when I need him?"

I offered a fair analysis of what was said.

Now he's calling me names.

I guess the message from John is, if I'd just go away, he'd miss me. On the other hand, he can't stand the things I say, so he gets mad at me. John seems to be trying to involve me in some sort of a love/hate relationship. But I think what he really wants is to be able to abuse me with impunity. He's a dominance freak.

Fancy John now in some thigh-high, spike-heeled, patent leather engineer boots. Got him a little black speedo, a big, black panama hat, a patch over his left eye, and a spiffy little six-foot whip.

John cracks the whip, snarling nastily: "Cry, Jimmy! Cry!"

I won't submit. John gets angrier. He pulls out a jar of goose grease, scoops up a big handful and . . . .

I promise to write the rest of the scene and post it on The Cyanide Hole for those who want to read it. I'll put up a link here when I'm done.

Jimmy

xsjohn

I refuse to cast another of my pearls amoung swine......that's it for you buddy.......... xsjohn

jimmythetrucker · Full Member Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283

Razar wrote:

Now now boys, let's not get into name calling.

Jimmy sez: I haven't called anybody any names.

Razar wrote:

As to the cost to the country; if anything, the costs go down. In OZ we have a subsidised drug program as well, that gives the government the ability to degotiate down the prices of various pharmaceuticals. The big drug companies hate it. Must be a good thing.

Jimmy sez: That's right, Razar. It's a good thing. The real truth is that if the drug companies were losing money, they'd just quit selling drugs to the government. After all: Nobody forces them to do business in Australia.

Razar wrote:

And the cost in any system is born by the population. It's just that in our system the rich pay a little more than the poor (not as much as you think cause they can afford good accountants) but the real benefit for the individual is the spreading around of the risk/cost. One year it might be my turn to claim, next year someboby else gets to spend my tax input. It's standard insurance practice, but whithout the profit surcharge that the private insurers add on top. Overall it SAVES the country money,keeps the population healthier and happier which aids productivity and also helps to prevent minor medical conditions that are cheap to deal with from progressing to major problems that are both expensive and life threatening. And BEST of all it stops people being financially ruined by illness, at a time when they are unable to do anything about it.

Jimmy sez -- Absolutely correct, once again.

Razar wrote:

I think that a clear indication of how well the US system works, is the vitriol so many of you heap upon your government.

Jimmy sez -- And the success of American talk-radio hate merchants shows in the vitriol that right-wing Americans such as xsjohn hurl at those of us who favor programs that would pull the voracious insurance companies off of his back. John hates those who abuse him. The hate merchants redirect his attention and teach him to hurl it at those who want to help him. This is the way things are here in America -- a place that the propagandists insist is the best of all possible worlds.

I don't know if you get Rush Limbaugh in Oz. I don't know if you get Fox News or CNN. But if you did, you'd quick enough see how Americans are pumped full of BS about how terrible it is in Canada, where people have to endure a tyrannical health-care system which offers them no choice between doctors and no second opinions on treatments. You'd hear and see similar stories about Britain and France. You'd watch and listen while they tear down guys like Michael Moore, who try to tell America the truth.

The result is a nation in which about half of the population thinks like xsjohn: talk to them about socialized medicine, they'll start screeching about the evils of abortion and the peril of communists hiding under the bed. It's a crazy place full of crazy people who think they can strike a blow for American democracy by defeating socialized medicine and shooting an abortion doctor.

You Aussies sent us Rupert Murdoch. One of thse days we'll send you back an invitation to participate in a nuclear war that Mr. Murdoch helped to foment.

Razar wrote:

Nuff said. Please continue.

Jimmy sez -- Nope. I'm gonna leave you alone on this thread with xsjohn and his gang of loonies. Anybody who's interested can get more about xsjohn in his anti-communist boots on The Cyanide Hole in a day or two.

nj1639

Get the federal government out of our personal lives.

Razar

nj1639 you have a good point. I'm not advocating the government interferring in our personal lives, I agree with you on that point.

Having said that though, I do think that governments should do what we elect them for, which is to provide and administer the services that the population needs. This can be done wholey through government or through private industry or a combination of both, whatever works best.I personally see no reason why WELL MANAGED government schemes can't do the job, and at a cheaper price. If you cut out the profit then you cut out a large cost. And you also cut out the greed and dirty doings that plague private industry.
To argue that private industry is inherantly better managed because of competion etc, flies in the face of the evidence.In fact, the imperative of corporate management is to maximize profit for the shareholders, as it should be. Works fine for making TV's cars etc where cheaper is better.(when done well). Not so good where quality of service is required. Health is not about profit, not about earnings ratios on capital, it's about wellbeing, not a good area for the corporate sector.
The same with pension funds. Large sums of money attract the financial sharks. We've been having problems here with corporate run pension funds pissing the money away on big salaries and poor investments (like US subprime schemes etc)Whereas the government pension is solid and semi government pension plans though taking a hit from the stock market problems, are still secure, and will likely regain their value when all the histerea subsides.

Razar

Just a little adition to the previous post.

When I"ve mentioned private industry, I probably should have put corporate industry. I've found that businesses that are owned and operated by one person or a family (with or without employees) tend to operate in a better and more ethical way. After all it is their money and lively hood on the line. This is the pure capitalism that is a good thing for society.(mostly)

What Happened to 650rider.com?

Yamaha xs650