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Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?
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buckroseau
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PostPosted: May 18, 2009, 10:07 pm    Post subject: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Hi,

Question for the electrical Pamco ignition experts.


Bought a Pamco ignition a couple months ago for a XS650 project I was building. 2 weeks ago had a friend of mine who is an electrical engineer for Polaris industries over to help wire everything up. After he was done, we hooked up the battery...the thing popped right off like it was brand new...I was happy Very Happy

I was able to drive it for the first time last week. Made it about 3 miles and it started to spit and sputter. I unhooked the headlight and taillight and my power came back. Got it home, my buddy came over and concluded what I thought also, not charging. One of the brushes was wore down to the wear line. Ordered up a new set of brushes, installed on Saturday...started, 13.80 volts at the battery..happy again. Very Happy

Drove it to work this morning for the first time. Made it about 7 miles and it started to miss and backfire on one cylinder. I unhooked the headlight and taillight, but no change this time. Thinking now this may a fuel deliver issue..not sure? Work was about another half mile away, limped it along on 1 cylinder to work, got there at noon. Went out after work tonight to play around with it....I forgot my ignition switch on, battery was dead. Pulled the bike into the shop at work and put it on the charger for about a half hour..tried starting, nothing. Installed an extra set of plugs in the caps, grounded to the engine....absolutely zero spark. Sad

I called up my electrical engineering buddy, he came over with his multi-meter and starting testing. I'm not an electrical guy by any means, and didn't understand most of what he said....but he couldn't figure out any reason why it shouldn't work? I had power coming up to the pamco unit, power going back to the coil he said and he tested something from coil wire to coil wire and I had so many K's, which was good??? In any event, he was somewhat baffled himself. His suggestion was to order up another unit and swap it out, because there wasn't really anything else to go wrong?

Anyone else have any problems like this? I'm going to order up another Pamco kit along with dual coil from Mikes XS again tonight, Part #14-0901, but I hate to keep dumping $130 crack if this may happen again?

1975 XS650 by the way.

Thanks, Matt
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650skull
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PostPosted: May 18, 2009, 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

I suggest you PM Pamcopete and talk to him before getting another unit. I am sure he will help you out
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jayel
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PostPosted: May 18, 2009, 10:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

some of those were spitting out the magnets that controls the timing, pete has a fix for it
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pumps
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PostPosted: May 18, 2009, 11:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

I'd like to know how this is resolved as I am running one too.
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yamaman
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 2:38 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Pumps, I couldn't find the thread that covers this, but to stop the magnets from flying out, Pete had a large washer on the outside of the rotor. This also needed a special thin nut, (I think with a intergrated lock washer). If your setup doesn't have this, you'll need to talk to Pete!
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

buckroseau,

Well, it sounds like you may have fried the coil by leaving the ignitin on. When the coil is fried, it develops a short circuit. The current is supplied by the transistor in the PAMCO, so the transistor then draws more current than it can handle. If there was a 10 Amp fuse in the ignition circuit, that fuse would blow, but you probably only have a single main fuse, a 20 Amp fuse at that, so there is not enough current to blow the fuse, but there is enough to fry the transistor.

To confirm all of this, measure the resistance on the primary of the coil. Should be 2.5 to 3.5 Ohms.

The other possibility is that the fried coil is now open circuited, in which case, you will just have to order up a new coil from Mikes.

In any event, the PAMCO is covered by a one year warranty and will be replaced for no charge if it is defective. PM me for the return to address.

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buckroseau
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 9:57 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Pete,

Thanks for the response. I will remove the coil and ignition unit this evening and get it sent your way tomorrow.

In the mean time I did order up another ignition unit and coil from Mikesxs, just to have a spare on the shelf in the event it was to fail again and to get the bike back on the road a bit faster. Hoping to have the new one by Friday.

Another question: Would there be a more durable coil than the black one offered in the $129 kit, maybe the green one?

Thanks, Matt
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buckroseau
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Pete,

y electrical engineering friend asked, "ask Pete what the smallest fuse is that we can use and not get false trips."

Thanks, Matt
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 3:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

buckroseau

The system draws about 4 Amps if left on with the engine not running. The duty cycle is 50%, so it draws 2 Amps when running. I normally reccomend 10 Amps using the rule of double the expected highest current draw and availability, but a closer number would be a 7 1/2 Amp fuse.

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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 4:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

buckroseau

I have the green coil in my '81/H and I'm happy with it. It runs a lot cooler and produces a real "flame thrower" voltage of 75 KV which means that you can widen your plug gap for better burning, especially with the leaner BS34's.

Another good coil is the aftermarket HD 17131. I have that coil in my '78/E. Longer spark duration and also runs cooler.

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buckroseau
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Pete,

Do you know if the green coil has the same mount hole locations as the cheaper MikesXS dual coil? Reason I ask is that my mounting studs are welded in a very specific place.

Thanks, Matt
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 8:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

buckroseau

Yes, the mounting holes are the same as stock, but it is a larger coil and the wire towers protrude, so you may have to do a little rework to make it fit.

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buckroseau
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PostPosted: May 19, 2009, 10:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

I was taking apart the Pamco ignition unit tonight so I could send it and the coil in and I noticed this stuck to the inside cover. Obviously we missed this yesterday, and I am now assuming this was the culprit for it firing on just one cylinder all of a sudden?

So, I still am going to get a new coil and send in my old one since I believe that is the secondary problem that occured after I left my ignition on and couldn't get it to fire on even 1 cylinder anymore.

What do I do about this problem, and is the new unit I ordered from Mikesxs today going to do the same thing?

att
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 20, 2009, 6:45 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

buckroseau

The new unit will have a large washer included that attaches to the rotor and retains the magnets.


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Last edited by pamcopete on May 20, 2009, 7:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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jimmythetrucker
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PostPosted: May 20, 2009, 7:12 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

pamcopete -- If I buy one of those iggys from Mike's next month, does it need the washer fix, too, or has the problem been permanently corrected by now?
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 20, 2009, 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

jimmythetrucker


The "washer fix" will continue to be shipped with the system as added protection from the magnets exiting the rotor.

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jimmythetrucker
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PostPosted: May 20, 2009, 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

pamcopete -- I don't doubt that the washer fix works, but it seems sort of an inelegant solution to impose on a device that before was so elegant in its simplicity. No offense intended.
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 20, 2009, 8:31 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

jimmythetrucker

Well, no offence taken! Just the opposite. I like the word elegant. So hard to achieve. So many compromises in life.

aybe I should call it the "Magnet Retaining Plate"?

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jimmythetrucker
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PostPosted: May 20, 2009, 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

"Magnet Retaining Plate" would be the politically correct term for "washer fix". In rhetoric, however, brevity is elegance. One syllable is more elegant than three in expressing the same idea. Thus (false concepts such as obscenity aside) "sh*t is more elegant than "excrement." So, even though it is politically correct, "Magnet Retaining Plate" (six syllables) is inelegant next to "washer fix" (three syllables). The MOST elegant expression of "washer fix" would have just one syllable. If you can find a monosyllabic term (or invent one) that expresses "washer fix" precisely, then the rhetorical problem is solved. Other than that achievement, the most elegant thing you could do would be to reinvent the invention so the term "washer fix" isn't needed. It is in engineering as it is in rhetoric: "Fewer parts = fewer problems."
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 22, 2009, 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Here are a couple of important installation tips for the 17-6803 coil that comes with Mikexs kit.

There have been a few coil failures due to overheating because the coil was not mounted properly. Mounting the coil firmly to the cross bar provides a heat sink to reduce the temperature of the coil.

When the coil fails, it shorts out and takes the PAMCO with it, so it's important to take the time for these mounting steps.

It's important that the coil be firmly mounted on the cross bar using the ground wire clamps. I have recently discovered as well that the plastic covering on the ends of the coil mounting ears has to be removed to provide optimum heat conduction.



Go to Home Depot and buy 2 Ground Clamps (1/2 - 3/4 - 1") #051411160104 @ $1.46 ea.



Another basic improvement would be to install a 10 Amp inline fuse to the coil so if it does short out, it will not take the PAMCO with it. '80 to '83 models already have such a fuse.

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jayel
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PostPosted: May 22, 2009, 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

time to paint the frame pete Laughing maybe a short piece of alluminum L-angle as a heat sink? between the coil and the bracket
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pamcopete
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PostPosted: May 23, 2009, 5:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

jayel

Yea...that's my old faithful '78/E that always got me home. It's a shame, but I moved to the beach a couple of years ago for a couple of years and the bike was parked outside about a block from the beach. Wind always blew...beautiful place, but I had to scrape the salt off of the bike in the morning. Not much point now in cleaning her up for paint because the rust in some spots on the frame is pretty deep.

She's still a runner, and I take her around the block every couple of weeks just for old times sake. The rest of the time I use her for testing the PAMCO system with different coils, plugs, wires etc. so I can relate to people who have installed my system on a '72 to '79 model. That's why there is one of mikes coils on her now. I also installed the "Green Monster" coil on her as well to work out an installaiotn procedure as shown in the photos.

She doesn't seem to mind her new life. Better than a one way trip to the junk yard!

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jayel
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PostPosted: May 23, 2009, 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

nothing wrong with a faithful old test mule, might not have the stamina but still got the spirit
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TeeCat
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PostPosted: May 24, 2009, 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Pamco Ignition - No spark, anyone else?

Pete, what are the symptoms of a coil failure? My bike is suddenly running (seemingly) on one cylinder and I have to pursue all possible options. My coil is mounted in the manner you suggest, except that I didn't see any removable plastic covers on the coil mounting ears.

First, I'll try new plugs.

TC
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