check out this site

Joseph · Full Member Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY

Ya baby thats it, I would love to know the facts. It seems the general conclusion is, back pressure is needed for best street performance, but how much. Would long open pipes do it or would baffled pipes be better?

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Jack, you are wrong! we do not disagree Wink

you are saying the same thing I just said! only you are better at explaining yourself then I am Rolling Eyes

It's the word "backpressure" I don't like, makes people think they need restriction to run properly. We are booth talking about the exact same thing! the ability of a properly sized pipe to remove the spent fuel the piston can't push out on it's own. That pipe I made does not just empty from collector to cone, cone is just for looks, cone surounds a 2"pipe hidden inside. It is no more then a standard 2into1 header with a cone for dress up thats been made for decades. Jack I took no offence to what you wrote. I'm kind of new to this "talking in type" and don't like it much, without tone and facial expressions sometimes things I say come out wrong in print, so if I sound smug I apologize, I'm a humble guy and don't like sounding arrogant. I look back on some of my posts and they do not read like I wanted them to. I just want to be able to keep on having fun with bikes is all, and building these pipes were just a means to an end, cant afford the hobby without a little help and I am SO great full to those who have helped me and continue to do so by saying in public they are happy with my stuff. The number of pipes I sell is so small it could never provide an income, just keeps the welder going and some parts from Mike every once in a while.

yamaman · Posted: August 2, 2009, 12:47 pm Post subject: Re: check out this site

I guess it's a science with not much reward Joseph. Most things that we know about have been tried. The EXUP valve on the FZR Yammies as well as a thousand other attempts at building a better mouse trap!

Even if you came up with the ultimate system, what would it offer to a GP bike already making bucket loads of power? Probably not a lot!

Expansion chambers for 4strokes are possibly the next big thing, but it will take years of research to come up with the ultimate system for each bike/riding style! And to what end? Probably a couple of horsepower!

So at the moment, you come up with an idea (usually based on known facts) build it & trial it. If it doesn't meet expectations then you try a few small changes to tune it to your needs. If it does meet expectations, then you bolt it on & hit the road! Then you just get on with whatever is next!

Jack · Full Member Joined: Mar 15, 2005 Posts: 411

Roy........ I don't think anyone here is trying to give any member a hard time,at least I'm not and if that's the impression Scott and you have,then I apologize, I'm just trying to have an open friendly discussion here that's all,after all,you take one engine and ask ten builders how would they go about building it based on their knowledge and past experiences, well you'd get ten different opinions,is just the facts,no need for anyone to get bent out shape here,is my opinion Laughing

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

royfisk wrote:

I just want to step in here a bit, this is a out of control arguement. First of all on the street with a street engine (STREET ENGINE) back pressure is needed to scavage the exhaust gasses properly and efficiantly. Open exhaust Sound cool yes but do little in the way of improveing performance on a street engine. Now as for your comments on dyno's mike. Your not the only one who has access to one. Scott these guys are looking for numbers lets give them some. Bring your bike and megaphone pipe, plus your mile pipe down to jeffs and run both and give the guys some numbers. I can tell you right now the mile pipe is going to come out on top. But the open meg can also be baffled on the dyno for optimum performance. Jeff would be up to this for a small reasonable fee. And you would have to answer to no one cause Jeff would give the facts.

I already taked to Jeff last week by coincidence , dyno runs are on the way at $30 a pop. I'll use the "77" as it's totaly stock. I have had my drags on a dyno and looking for paper work now? I recall 4 1/2 hp gain but can't remember much else except it took 3 try's with jetting to get there, think went from 34 to 38 1/2hp but again been a few years? That was just an old stock xs not a rebuild. I know numbers are not impressive but think thats what they were. And not out of control Roy, not on my end anyway. If I never made another pipe again I would still have a roof over my head and a good life Very Happy

I truly have nothing to loose. I don't mind doing this as long as it remains fun!

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Jack wrote:

Roy........ I don't think anyone here is trying to give any member a hard time,at least I'm not and if that's the impression Scott and you have,then I apologize, I'm just trying to have an open friendly discussion here that's all,after all,you take one engine and ask ten builders how would they go about building it based on their knowledge and past experiences, well you'd get ten different opinions,is just the facts,no need for anyone to get bent out shape here,is my opinion Laughing

I'm with you Jack and don't think you are picking on me and realy am not bent out of shape Laughing

for me it is about fun Very Happy

Now let's move on to chevy vs ford Laughing

Mikesxs · Full Member Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 134 Location: FL

Sound clips of exhaust are something I mean to do and will see about that when I get back from Holland and Germany later this month ( I leave in the morning ). I am off visiting Jerry Heiden (Heiden Tuning) and Ruduger Paustian (XS650Shop.de) to discuss parts development projects that we have on the go. Deliveries from the factories and freight in general is really dragging along this year but time is loosening up a bit and a lot of major new items are pending soon. Note: We have sold all 511 of our Big Bore kits but have another run on order. Many new important projects are undergoing final pre-production testing and we will
publish final dyno results of exhaust, Ignition, Carb and engine performance part combinations. A reliable 75HP (at rear wheel) XS street engine with some low end torque is the objective.

Mike Lalonde Mikes XS

Joseph · Full Member Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY

Quote::

Here is another way to look at it, if you were to siphon gas out of a tank (we all been there) and you had a large diameter hose (large exhaust pipe) it would take a lot of suction to fill that hose with gas and have it start to siphon for you, it would come up the tube so far and then just stop when you ran out of suction and had to take another breath, on the other hand if hose was too small you would look like you just ate a lemon with a pucker face trying to suck all that gas thru a straw (restriction), it would be easy to start the siphon but would take forever to get the gas out of the tank. Like I said earlier a good exhaust will help siphon the remaining 10% or so of spent fuel out of the combustion chamber that the piston cannot push out on it’s own. So we are looking for a good balance between the two extremes, not to big and not to small.

I think the term backpresure has been limmiting my imagination on getting this all in my head. This is a good way to look at it.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Mikesxs wrote:

Sound clips of exhaust are something I mean to do and will see about that when I get back from Holland and Germany later this month ( I leave in the morning ). I am off visiting Jerry Heiden (Heiden Tuning) and Ruduger Paustian (XS650Shop.de) to discuss parts development projects that we have on the go. Deliveries from the factories and freight in general is really dragging along this year but time is loosening up a bit and a lot of major new items are pending soon. Note: We have sold all 511 of our Big Bore kits but have another run on order. Many new important projects are undergoing final pre-production testing and we will
publish final dyno results of exhaust, Ignition, Carb and engine performance part combinations. A reliable 75HP (at rear wheel) XS street engine with some low end torque is the objective.

Mike Lalonde Mikes XS

Hi Mike, Have a safe trip and I for one am looking forward to what you come up with (75rwh) I know you have a lot of resources at hand and if you end up even close to your goal you’ll have a convert singing your praise out of me Wink

until then I’ve always been a happy customer of yours and looking forward to new products you develop.

royfisk · Posted: August 2, 2009, 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: check out this site

Jack I am not under the impression that you are in anyway putting anyone down nor critisizeing anyone, nor do I think mike is. Both you and I know that open exhaust on street engines is not the answer for anything. (tickets, burnt valves, nor real performance gaines). Mike I dont think you are critisizeing anyone either, You have and obviously are going to spend more money developeing more real performance parts. I have known Scott for about 3 month's now and he is not a tuner, he is a guy that is having fun building parts on a small scale for the xs bikes. Im hopeing that the dyno runs will give scott some vision of what really happens with various exhaust systems. That way his exhaust systems can carry there weight in the performance world. In other words perform as well as they look. The tuner that owns the dyno that scott is going to run on is top notch. Ive known Jeff Castine since I was a very young boy. He has tunned some of the best bikes in new england. not to mention the motorcycle powered sprint cars. He also has a state of the art dyno. So Scott will get real facts to bring back from his trip to the dyno. I personally think that Scotts exhausts will be top notch in both appearance and performance when all done and said, I also think that every custom exhaust he builds will be. You know I would bet without knowing for sure that scotts mile pipe will perform as good as any comercial pipe out there. I have not riden any of his bikes, But have been around awhile and have seen lots of things tried and done and it looks like a winner. Scott may have to adjust the meg pipes internals but at least then he knows what really works and what dont. Mike it might be to your advantage to keep a close eye on Scotts work as it gets better, He could very well be your next exhaust supplyer for the custom market. Not china or tywan.

Jack · Full Member Joined: Mar 15, 2005 Posts: 411

Roy......we're always on the same page Wink

Scott............I don't know the what the dimensions of your megaphones are but I have an extra SuperTrapp baffle core for a 4" that I bought for experiments,you more than welcome to have it,i'll just need to cut out and weld back the original core from factory. Megaphones to me are more functional with some type of baffling or just simply welding a reverse end cap with an extension of about six inches welded on( You can cut off accordingly to fine tune) creating a longer path for the gas pulse to build momentum to pull,if you know what Imean Laughing

Mikesxs · Full Member Joined: Feb 06, 2007 Posts: 134 Location: FL

Roy: Production suppliers will alyays be overseas. We can't make them here at a price riders will pay thanks to restrictions on Chrome and the cost of buying the tube in less than shiploads. Always interested in new idea's though.

Mike @ Mikes XS

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Guys, Thanks Jack for the generous offer very kind of you Wink

. Roy is SO right! I am not a tuner and every thing I know about what works and doesn’t is just from what I read (from people in the field) very limited dyno time and my experience of trial and error. Open pipes have been run on bikes probably as long as bikes have been around, there has always been that guy that say’s “hey listen to this!” lol…. So nothing new with open pipes and I will not argue right or wrong just saying I’m not the first and won’t be the last. Also open pipes or open trumpets have been used in "tt" and "rr" I believe? I'll look into that if anyone cares? One thing though, I promise if you guy’s took my chopper for a spin you would come back surprised! No lack of torque and revs up quick, it is faster then ANY of my other XS’s with stock pipes, period! So why is this besides the weight factor? Also Roy thank you kindly for the nice word on my fabrication :o) I am just a guy having fun (or trying too) but no need for Mike too keep an eye on me, I don’t plan on doing this much longer. It was always a means to an end, just like I wrote on front page of my site “limited number of pipes to sell” now I have some tools and don’t have to rely on others to do work for me, creative freedom at last. I have probably made as many friends as pipes doing this and don’t regret any of it, I’ve been so lucky to have great customers and still get email updates on there builds after the sale. I will still do dyno for fun and will be truthful good or bad because again I have nothing to loose. The stock exhaust is so restrictive I believe almost any 1.5” exhaust would make more power. One thing I want to say and is just opinion, we are talking about performance gains on an xs650 lol… This bike came with 43rwh and weighed 426lbs! We can build the snot out of these and won’t make a hill of beans difference when that 17yo kid pulls up to you with his gixxer 1000r his parents bought him, game over! These bikes where obsolete when they first came out, had to sell against cb750 (released “69”) and kz900. I know why guys build them up, it’s fun. Same reason hot rods where built and so on. So lets not loose site of the real goal, fun p.s. I truly am fine with all of this so no bad feelings here I promise Very Happy

Jack · Full Member Joined: Mar 15, 2005 Posts: 411

Scott...........I have something that might be of interest to you, just a bit of icing insight on exhaust systems and gas velocities based on actual dyno tracks :lol:. Do you have a fax # or mailing address cuz my printer is down. Good luck on the testing and keep those ears open and that note book & pen close by.

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Jack, The bike is going on the dyno Wednsday and will even take pictures Wink

Also found this article in the “06” Back street choppers Magazine called “exhausting theories” written by Matt Daigle on page 106 “Tech x pert”. I remembered this article and thought I would share some of what he wrote… “ Backpressure? One of the common misconceptions I hear is “you need more backpressure” This is about the same as “you need more choke” and makes about as much sense. The engine needs to move air in, combustion products out, or “breath” if you prefer. If you want backpressure, try farting through a boatswain’s whistle. An engine’s displacement is constant, but its volumetric efficiency can be maximized. The basis behind backpressure is not completely wrong though, as at first it seems that leaving pipes off would allow the maximum amount of exhaust to escape. But, this leaves only the upward movement of the piston to push the gases out after the initial pressure release. Properly sized pipes route the combustion products such that their velocity sucks out the remaining gasses that the piston can’t push out. If the pistons push out 80 ci the pipes could help pull out the remaining 10ci that the heads hold. On the other end of the scale, a pipe that’s too restrictive doesn’t allow all the gases to escape.” There is more to the article, this guy explains what I've been tring to say way better then me Confused

again “Backstreet Choppers” Dec, 06 page 106. Believe my guys I’m not posting this to start anything Laughing

I just want others reading this thread to know I’m not alone in my view of this subject, right or wrong.

Jack · Full Member Joined: Mar 15, 2005 Posts: 411

You farting trouble maker...where the heck are those moderator mediators when ya need,em Laughing

Got any future plans to dyno a set of stepped headers Scott? I just had to post this picture,I hope you have a sense of humor Wink

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jimbowattz · Full Member Joined: Mar 18, 2009 Posts: 27

I'm rockin a set of his drags and i think they are sweet. good stuff scott!!

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

jimbowattz wrote:

I'm rockin a set of his drags and i think they are sweet. good stuff scott!!

Hey Jim, about time you got here to help me LOL.... your bike is lokkin good my friend!

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Jack wrote:

You farting trouble maker...where the heck are those moderator mediators when ya need,em Laughing

Got any future plans to dyno a set of stepped headers Scott? I just had to post this picture,I hope you have a sense of humor Wink

[img]

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Ok Jack thats it you asked for it! LOL.... Laughing

You said "Steped headers" ? you mean the pipes I call "drag pipes"? I'll dyno those too if you like?

gordonscott · Full Member Joined: May 06, 2009 Posts: 304

Hi Guys, Well looks like we have a winner in the "test bike"! Did first dyno run and this bike is as close to a time capsule as I think we're going to get. 42.48 hp @ 35.50 ft-lbs. The graph is a little wavy because of wheel balance or loose chain so will try to correct for next run, but the curve is good. So now we know what this bike is doing stock and next Wednesday I will do a set of my pipes. Jeff does not want me to re-jet or put on pods so the next run will be just bolting on a set of my pipes.

Retiredgentleman · Posted: August 5, 2009, 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: check out this site

gordonscott;
Very interesting dyno graph. I find my bike likes to run at 3500 to 3900 RPM and this graph shows why. Torque is reasonbly flat in that area.

Teebs · Full Member Joined: Aug 26, 2008 Posts: 255

I've been quietly following this thread since it started. Since I don't know Jack Squat about the issue I've been keeping my mouth shut, but it's been a very interesting discussion.

I can't wait to see the results, Scott.

Jack · Full Member Joined: Mar 15, 2005 Posts: 411

These dyno graphs clearly depict the results of the testing during the Minton erra.
Gordon...you know that testing of the pipes is just the beginning cuz you've got a lot catching up to do Rolling Eyes

Joseph · Full Member Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY

I want to see what the drag pipes do?

What Happened to 650rider.com?

Yamaha xs650