engine oil...?

jpowell · Posted: January 14, 2009, 1:11 am Post subject: engine oil...?

So I've seen this question answered scattered throughout different posts, but not seen it answered in one designated place.

I have heard a lot of opinions, mostly that the technology was different in the 70s than it is now, that what Yamaha recomends for oil isn't the best now days...

So... Who thinks what is best? I Believe I got from a post here that 15W-40 diesel is a good non deterent oil, and that's what I've been using. With no complaints. But I'd be willing to move onward and upward if there's something better. Especially now with being in the middle of a top-end rebuild and is problably a good time to switch oils.

Thanks, Jeff

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

Any 20w 50 Mineral Oil rated for Imperial (Modern Harleys) and Metric (Jap Cruiser) V-Twins is perfect.

orris V-Twin makes the engine run cooler but you cant get that over there.

The oil recommended by Mike would appear to be wrong spec due to additives aimed at a dry clutch rather than a wet clutch, from what I read.

Just a basic good quality 20w50 is fine. The higher tech ones aimed at later V-Twins seem to top the scale for best XS650 "on paper" compatibiliy..my experiences concurs strongly with this..so much so..I recommend people try it if they can find it.

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

I live in the tropics of north Queensland Australia, i tried tried 15/40 diesel and the oil was boiling after a ride. To thin for my climate. Running 20/40 after that, looking for some 20/50 but is harder to find up here.

xsjohn · Posted: January 14, 2009, 9:59 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Oil cooler of some sort..?..if the oil is 212F wonder what the cylinders and head are.....270F.....?....my oil runs about 170F in the hot summer.........cylinders may touch 240F running it hard....used to be 270F.......

compression effects temps also Im afraid..... Sad

Right cylinder temp will drag the whole thing upwards too....
Spent some time on these subjects......Too much actually....

xsjohn

jayel · Posted: January 14, 2009, 11:26 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

found this on a (ahem)H-D site
There is a lot of confusion about oil in motorcycles. Specially
marketed "motorcycle oil" is a lot more expensive than oil sold for
cars, but is it really safe to run car oil? Yes and No, just make
sure it meets SG, SH, SJ, or SL service requirements. Generally, you
are better off with a heavy-duty oil for diesel engines, such as
15w40, below is a list of oils known to work well in motorcycles, but
note; that they are either heavy duty grade or for diesel:

1. Chevron Delo 400 15w40

2. Mobil Delvac 1300 Super 15w40

3. Pennzoil Long-Life 15w40

4. Quaker State 4X4 Synthetic Blend 15w40

5. Shell Rotella-T 15w40

6. SuperTech 2000 (WalMart) 15w40

7. Valvoline All Fleet 15w40

8. Castrol Syntec Blend Truck and 4X4 15w40

A really good choice HAS always been Mobil One 15w50, but recently
they changed their formula from TriSynthetic to SuperSyn, which has
additional friction modifiers, which may make it no longer a good
choice for bikes. This is still up in the air, with people having
mixed results, but I say, why risk it, try one of the other ones
above!

So, you may wonder, "Why then, is motorcycle sooo much more money, if
its the same stuff?"

Well, because they sell motorcycle oil in smaller quantities, more
packaging, smaller orders, less sales, more cost per quart. Just
recently, some of the major oil companies have caught on to this, and
have started selling their own motorcycle oils in auto parts stores
and even places like WalMart, and they are MUCH closer to the price
of regular car oil, because once again, they are the massive
companies, they move a lot more oil, and have less cost per quart.
So, when you buy the really expensive motorcycle oil for your bike,
what you are paying for, is not better oil, you're just paying for
that companies costs. Get it? Good. Save your money for better
things, like new parts!

pamcopete · Posted: January 14, 2009, 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

jayel

I'm not an H-D person, but, don't most models of H-D have a dry clutch?

I have used Pennzoil 20W50 auto oil in my '78/E since 1996. I started using it right after I changed the clutch. Now, I'm at 78,000 miles with the same clutch. Of course, it's the same oil that I use in my '81/H.

The Pennzoil 10W40 and 20W50 are fomulated for older cars and do not have all of the latest additives that Pennzoils other oils contain. 20W50 auto oil was what was reccomended for the XS650 when it was built, so it figures that an oil from that era would work just fine.

jayel · Posted: January 14, 2009, 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

older XL (Sportsters )models had dry clutches newer XL's are wet but separate from motor the FL's (hogs) ran semi wet, oil passed thru to oil primary chain but clutch wasn't in a bath (immersed)

Retiredgentleman · Posted: January 14, 2009, 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

EPA mandated a big reduction in ZDDP (zinc,phosphorus,sulfur) because it tends to foul catalytic converters. ZDDP protects the valve train,rings and bearings.

Apparently the big change was from SJ to SM for gasoline engine oils and from CI to CJ for diesel engine oils. As an example, Shell Rotella T Diesel is now CJ rated, meaning it no longer has the high level of ZDDP. The last time I looked, Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 still has the CI rating and a SJ rating.

The Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 has been working well here in Canada, which is definitly not the tropics.

xsjohn · Posted: January 14, 2009, 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

That's why I mix 1 qt of VR1 racing oil with regular oil......20-50......xsjohn

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

I hear you john, my bike is down and will be for a while.......i was lurking on this site for a while and was following your heat diagnosis and watching your needle development. Will get round to getting some when the time arises.

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

Living in New Zealand in the early 90'swhen i bought my 83 Heritage Special (Canadian import)...........Really didn't know about the oil thing and just used SAE 30 car oil, had no problems with the clutch and did a lot o K's, 2 hour trips............

xsjohn · Posted: January 14, 2009, 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Nobody wants to hear it cause everyone is on the MORE>>MORE>>>MORE thing......But mine never really pleased me till I lowered the compression a bit........that's why I beg for good used chains and headgaskets......can go on forever for free and pleased .....new chains won't go on a raise head......will never ever ever ever go back stock again unsess I run out of good used chains.....and that will be 50 years maybe...and I will be dead hopefully...... Laughing

......and it cost me nothing to lower it...well some gray matter maybe.......and can always put it back but won't.... Laughing

xsjohn

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

don't push it to hard John, if it catches on you will create a market for second hand chains and price your selfe out Sad

650skull · Support Staff Joined: Jul 19, 2007 Posts: 1186

...well some gray matter maybe.......and can always put it back but won't.... :lol:...........xsjohn (Quote)
Now your talking sense John Laughing

xsjohn · Posted: January 14, 2009, 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Skull......It won't catch on....everybody is heading in the other dirrection...or remaining status quo...and if it did and I needed a bit longer chain I would just put it on my kids bicycle for a while....guarenteed to stretch it out for sure.......or put it on an exercise bike and have the wife pedal it while she watches TV .... good luck there ...:lol: Laughing

xsjohn

Jake68 · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Mar 23, 2007 Posts: 841

pamcopete wrote:

jayel

I'm not an H-D person, but, don't most models of H-D have a dry clutch?

I have used Pennzoil 20W50 auto oil in my '78/E since 1996. I started using it right after I changed the clutch. Now, I'm at 78,000 miles with the same clutch. Of course, it's the same oil that I use in my '81/H.

The Pennzoil 10W40 and 20W50 are fomulated for older cars and do not have all of the latest additives that Pennzoils other oils contain. 20W50 auto oil was what was reccomended for the XS650 when it was built, so it figures that an oil from that era would work just fine.

The V-Twin Specified oils that are available in the EU are bang on for working with the Metric V-Twins that have wet clutches. But transposely that are also effectively formulated to work with the high temperatures in operation on Harley's and S&S style motors even Buells. Which are of course basically flawed because one cylinder blocks cooling for the other. Oils effectively formulated for these motors work well in our engines because they have the same weight and the same attention required to formulating for high temperature engines. The XS650 in insufficiently cooled as all know.

A lof of these oils are available in the US I beleive?

Put it this way, I've tried two V-Twin oils and the bike immediately ran cooler, cooler to the touch..it was that OBVIOUS Smile

The oil remains cleaner also.

pamcopete · Posted: January 14, 2009, 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

jake68

Well, I'm sure that a lot of the motorcycle specific oils are just that....optimized for the operating conditions, high temperatures etc. that are found in an air cooled engine. Most of them are also very expensive as well, probably because motorcycles are a very small market compared to automobiles. These specialty oils are put together by companies that by and large do not have their own refineries, so they buy a stock oil from the big refineries that meets their basic spec and then insert some additives to formulate a motorcycle specific oil.

Because of their much higher cost, there is a tendency to stretch the change interval, using the rationale that if the oil is more expensive it must be better, when in fact they are formulated from the same stock as ordinary motor oils. So, they aren't better...they are just different.

When it comes to multi viscosity oils, the one thing that cannot be overcome is the mechanical breakdown of the molecular polymers that put the multi into multi viscosity. The polymers are microscopic chains of molecules that expand with heat to increase the apparent viscosity of the stock oil. They are subject to actual mechanical breakage by the very high mechanical pressure of the roller and ball bearings used in our engines. The polymers are further damaged by the shearing action of the gears in the transmission. In other words, the oil wears out and loses its higher numbered viscosity to revert to the lower viscosity of the stock oil. If you had an oil pressure gauge on your motorcycle, like I do, you can actually see the pressure decrease as the oil “loses it”. And it is one of the indicators that I use to change the oil.

Bottom line is that regardless of how much you spend on your oil, you should still change it no later than every 1,500 miles. The more expensive motorcycle oils break down just as fast as ordinary automobile oil.

Using a non specific motorcycle oil and changing it frequently is far better than using a made for motorcycles oil but not changing it as often because of the high cost.

jpowell · Posted: January 14, 2009, 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Pete, not to just off topic, but where did you tap in to get oil preasure? The oil riser is the only place I can think of. That being said, thanks for your advice. You and a few others seam to have some research done to help...

jpowell · Posted: January 15, 2009, 12:31 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

One more thing I forgot to throw in before I got on my little rant. A dremmel tool would probably work great, but you'd need to drain the oil and take the side cover off, and then clean well with brake cleaner or some safe solvent to get all dirt off. I wouldnt do it with the cover on the bike for fear of poluting the oil

jpowell · Posted: January 15, 2009, 12:42 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Shot. sorry. ha I put posted that in the wrong post. sorry.. I think I need a beer...

xsjohn · Posted: January 15, 2009, 1:01 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Oil pressure sensor........Could tap in to the top of the oil tube like I did for the 2 intake oilers.......that cap is thick and brass.......used amal jets and stuck a drill in the end and held it against a grinding wheel to narrow and round the jet....drilling out the small jet end of the amal jet too........then tapped the end of the riser and thredded it in with some epoxy too....

Never checked but I heard somewhere these are only 15lbs at WOT.........much less at normal RPMS....

Since the restrictor hole and the bottom of the riser is .116 thou and the two exits that bolt to the head combined would larger than the .116 the oil pressure could read lower that it would in the main galley........if you know what I mean.....

xsjohn

pamcopete · Posted: January 15, 2009, 9:03 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

jpowell

I tapped into the filter cover which is the highest pressure point in the engine coming directly from the oil pump:

I used a VDO 0 - 15 PSI gage, part number 153-002:

Also available with a black face, #153-006

ounted the gauge in place of the ignition switch:

Next time I take the wet side cover off, I'll tap into the oil galley from the oil pump and replace the oil filter cover:
(pic is from the oil cooler on my '78)

The oil pressure in the XS650 is a nominal 14 PSI. Running hot at 3,000 RPM it is about 7 PSI. At idle on a hot day, it just about goes to zero.

On intitial startup, the presure can get as high as 20 PSI, which would open the bypass on the filter, so now that I have an oil pressure gauge, I removed the ball and spring from the oil filter bypass and screwed a stud in its place.

xsjohn · Posted: January 15, 2009, 10:08 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

Oil Filter Bypasses……Not sure of the XS bypass on the oil filter but the way a Wix engineer explained oil filter bypasses to me was about like this ……the bypass comes into play when the "“differential”" between the pump side pressure and the far side of the filter pressure reaches the specified bypass limit……example…..if the bypass pressure is stated 12lbs……then the pump side pressure on the filter would have to be 12 lbs "more" than the engine side pressure of the filter before it opens…..differential is the key word……

Hope this makes since........haven't had my second cup of coffee yet....

xsjohn

pamcopete · Posted: January 15, 2009, 10:30 am Post subject: Re: engine oil...?

xsjohn

Yes, it is differencial pressure that open the bypass. The blockage of the thick oil in the filter on initial startup could produce a differential pressure of 14 PSI. I have no way to measure differential pressure, but if I see the needle peg on a 15 PSI gage, the safe thing is to asssume a differential of more than 14 PSI, and that's only if the bypass has been adjusted properly. The bypass could open at something less than 14 PSI differential.

The bypass is intended to maintain oil flow to the engine in the event of a filter blockage, but my contention is that if the filter is blocked, it must be due to a sudden occurance of junk in the filter, so do I want that junk to bypass the filter and get into the innards of the engine? With the oil pressure gage, I can see such an occurance happening before the oil flow stops completly (no bypass) and shut down the engine.

Without an oil pressure gauge and with the bypass working, you could ride along for days with the junk being recirculated throught the engine, perhaps because of a holed sump filter.

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