Oil Loss / Consumption?

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Ok - about every 100 miles of riding - my oil level drops about 4 oz.
There is no black smoke coming out of my pipes so I doubt I am burning it - plus the bike only has 12K on it.

Does anyone else notice any oil loss / consumption with their bikes and if so how much?

Could it be the dreaded Clutch pushrod seal? Upon visual inspection the seal looks to be in good shape - but I know you can't always tell.

After the bike sits for a couple of hour I have a 25cent size spot on the ground - but I am not sure if it is clutch rod - or chain oil.

If it is the clutch seal - any tips for an easy replacement?
It is worth drilling out the bushing like Mikes XS says?

It it easy to do it with the engine still on the bike?

Is it not worth messing with? Question

Opinions - Tips - Welcome...

Thanks
Jim

jayel · Posted: April 7, 2008, 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

4 oz = 120cc ---- how much oil are you putting in? the older models took 2000cc, late models take 2300cc probably pumping it out the breather it may just want to run at that level

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Ok - When I fill it - I top it off to midway or top line (at the most) of the sight glass on the clutch side of the engine. I ALSO double check it with the dipstick (resting on threads - not screwed in) - never over the top (full) line.

I have the 1981 Bike.

It comes down to I add oil once a week of driving back and forth to work - or add right away after a 100 mile weekend ride. I don't add until oil is below bottom line of sight glass.

Thanks

How often are others adding oil?????????????????????

jayel · Posted: April 7, 2008, 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

myself not that often mine stays right at the full mark on my dipstick until I change it, what crankcase ventilation system are you using?

weekendrider · Posted: April 7, 2008, 11:01 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

Mine the oil level holds well till about 1000 miles and then I start to see some loss. And that depends on how hard/long I ride it. Same distance at 70 uses more than at 55-60.
Jayel what difference in the ventilation systems? One tube verses two?
Stock back to the airboxes verses a filter hanging out in the open?

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

The vent system changed in '80 to a single hose with a very small hole. According to this link, it's not enough but can easily be fixed .....

www.650motorcycles.com...ather.html

I'd like to add that to my '78. At the moment, I have the stock 2 hose set-up run to a "T" and then down to a K&N breather filter (I run pod air filters). I'm going to switch to those one way power brake valves this season. That's supposed to be the hot set-up - lets pressure out but not back in. It's supposed to help prevent oil leaks, too.

xsjohn · Posted: April 8, 2008, 12:57 am Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

I have an 80.......wonder if the mod to the breather messes up the stock filter after the mod......?

Did notice at the very end of the above mentioned discusson on 650motorcycles that his vent was completely cloged with gasket sealer by the PO.....could that have been the disparagy he was experiencing.........??My stock air box never contaminates the filters and my seals don't leak.....kinda afraid to venture.......tried the external breather but on windless days at a stop it smelled and made funny breathing noises all the time ........it does use a bit more oil than I think it should......but that may keep the stock mufflers from rusting from the inside out........

xsjohn

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

I have gone both ways with the breather system - stock T to air boxes and stock T to external breather elements. I nver really paid attention if one was better than the other at oil consumption.

As far as the boxes if I use my external element - I plug the opeings with Vacum line plugs from a car to keep air from bypassing the filter elements!

So what is the concensus? Is my 4oz every 100 miles worth worrying about?

What about that clutch seal? Easy to change on the bike? Should I put in the bushing Mikes XS talks about? How can you tell if you need to?

I don't mind doing the work - but I don't want to do it for nothing.

Thanks

grizld1 · Posted: April 8, 2008, 9:34 am Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

jimdi, to summarize, these scoots do pump some out through the breather (how much depends a lot on motor mods and how hard they're ridden), and you have to consider that what you see on the ground after parking the bike is a lot less oil loss than what's leaking when the engines's running and pressure's up.

Replacement of the clutch pushrod seal and bushing are easily done with the motor in the frame, and Mr. Lalonde's suggested procedures are spot-on. You can either cement the seal in as he suggests or smear it with seal grease and stake the case lightly to retain it. Be sure your clutch pushrod is in good shape; if it shows wear in the area swept by the bushing, it should be replaced. If it's pitted in the area swept by the seal it should be replaced (it'll just cut up the new seal). Often a loose sprocket nut can cause a leak at the countershaft seal as well.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Is Mr. Lalonde's - MikesXS?

Is there an easy way to diagnose the clutch seal? Visual inspection of mine reveals no tears or malformations.

Thanks for your input.

as far as loss - is 4 oz per 100 miles - normal - excessive - ????

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

I think 4 oz. per 100 miles is a bit much. Mine uses some but only about that much between oil changes (1000 miles).

To locate your leak, you'll need to clean under that cover really, really well (get it near spotless) and then take a short ride. Pull the cover back off and have a look-see. If the pushrod seal is really bad, you should see a dribble of fresh oil coming out below the rod and streaking down the case. Or from below the sprocket if that seal is bad. Take a look under your motor. Are there any oil drips hanging off the bottom of the starter motor? There's a large seal on it where it inserts into the engine that could also be bad. Mine was.

If the pushrod bushing is bad, even a good seal will leak. The worn bushing allows too much side to side movement of the rod and the seal can't do it's job. The short outer rod on the later 2 piece pushrod assembly moves side to side a lot even with a good bushing. This accelerates the bushing wear and eventually the seal leaks. The 1 piece long rod doesn't move side to side hardly at all. Your best bet for a leak-free pushrod seal is to install a new bushing AND the long rod.

weekendrider · Posted: April 8, 2008, 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

Now I'm confused. The double outlet was the early and the single the latter?
But I have the double outlet on the '79 and '83.

Jimdi the seal change is an easy fix. Just heed the warnings of getting the sharp edge of the outside of the hole or you get to buy two seals.
While your in there check the torque of the drive sprocket. Several have posted of finding the nut to loose and that was the cause of their leak.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

Someone must have changed the one on your '83, maybe to improve breathing.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Thanks for the input - sounds like a project for this weekend.

The "sharp Edge" you mention above - are you saying that the hole where the seal goes has a sharp edge and I should dull it - before putting in a new seal?

I had already purchased a new long rod (just by Mikes advice) but I can never get the 2nd half of the old rod out with just a magnet. Will it come out easier once I have the old seal out???

If I bore out the old bushing - any tricks to making sure I don't c*** up the hole with my drill???

Does the seal just pop out like a wheel bearing seal on a car? -
Do I just tap the new bushing and seal in with a hammer and matching socket?

The bushing gets greased before going in -
Does the seal get any type of sealer put on it?

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

Follow the seal replacement instructions in this link .....

www.650motorcycles.com/XSseals.html

Be sure and use the Yamabond or ThreeBond on the seal O.D., it really helps ease fitment. With the old seal removed, that inner rod should come right out. I never got that far as the ball between the 2 rods is what I couldn't get out through the seal. I had to remove the right side cover and clutch pressure plate to insert the long rod from that side, pushing the old pieces out through the seal.

Follow the instructions on the MikesXS site for the bushing replacement. They explain it all.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Thank You

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Ok I did it - a couple of notes - thanks for the heads up - my inner sprocket was getting loose -

changed the bushing on the clutch rod - of course I had to go clear up to 25/64th drilling it out - murphy's law - you ever try to buy a 25/64th's drill bit - not so easy to find!

New Bushing went in OK
took a while to magnetically get that 2nd push rod out - had to spin the magnetic rod slowly to get it out.

Chamfered the edges of the seal hole a little bit with a very sharp pocket knife -

No way I could get the new seal in with just thumb pressure - put sealer on it and used a socket to tap it in - it did shave a hair of rubber but it seems ok.

Put in Mikes 1 piece clutch rod

Started the bike with the cover off - held the clutch rod in place with my finger - no leaks that I saw.

Tomorrow I will rev it up and see what happens.

weekendrider · Posted: April 9, 2008, 1:25 am Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

Jimdi, congrats on getting it done with just one seal. If you'd have buggered it up you wouldn't be the first nor the last. My son reverted to the pocket knife method also. We couldn't locate a chamfering tool or anyone who knew what one was locally.

5twins wrote:

Someone must have changed the one on your '83, maybe to improve breathing.

I think your right. It reaffirms the fact you can't take anything for granted on these.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Ok I took it for a quick ride today before work - a little street - a little highway - hit 5 or 6 K (rpm) - seems to be holding -
what are the signs if you "bugger" it up? Do you know right away you put it in wrong or does it show up later with a massive loss of oil??????

It's in there - it's not leaking - do I have to worry about it "flying out" like a cork out of wine bottle when I am going down the highway?

Should I re-pull the cover when I get home to make sure the seal is secure?

All the talk about people taking multiple seals to get it to work has me nervous - loosing oil going down the highway at 60 is no joking matter!

royfisk · Posted: April 9, 2008, 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

If its not leaking you probably have it.

5twins · Full Member Joined: Aug 05, 2006 Posts: 1616

You may want to pull the cover and smear grease on the exposed portion of your new pushrod. It's just plain steel and will rust. Then every time you pull in the clutch, you'll be pushing rust through your new seal. The chain fling-off will eventually coat it but if you get caught in the rain before that happens .....

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

Thanks for the tips - I was concerned because I couldn't get the new seal to pop in place with just my thumbs and when I pressed it in with a socket a thin sliver of rubber came off - but as I said when I ran it with the cover off - I saw no drips... I also had a hard time finding a chamfer tool I was lucky to find the 25/64th drill bit!

one more big question....

As I mentioned I also discovered that my primary drive gear (sprocket) was loose - not rattle loose - just fingertight - I can wiggle the nut as far as the locktab will allow -- loose. (I re-torqued it)

This resulted in a "Shiny" ring on the out facing side of my primary sprocket (all the teeth are shiny on one side like the chain was riding more on that side rather than centered on the teeth - No visable marking on the inside of the sprocket.
It doesn't look really deformed - just shiny...

Question:

Do I need to replace
The sprocket???

The Chain???

Both Sprockets and Chain???

weekendrider · Posted: April 9, 2008, 1:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil Loss / Consumption?

Someone posted a link about chains and spockets and how to measure for wear but I can't find it (so much for my filing system). Maybe they'll see this and post again.

jimdi · 650Rider Supporter Joined: Oct 27, 2005 Posts: 512

I vaguely remember it as well -

ANYONE GOT A GUIDE ON WORN CHAINS AND SPROCKETS???

What Happened to 650rider.com?

Yamaha xs650