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what type of welder to start with for beginners
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BiffTirkle
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PostPosted: February 23, 2008, 5:32 pm    Post subject: what type of welder to start with for beginners

im sick and tired of not knowing how to weld. so ive decided to buy a welder and build a battery box for my bobber, and an engine holder for rebuilding my engine. and eventually i want to make a soft tail bobber.

those of you who have experience welding. please enlighten me on what kind i should start with. a tech i work with says that a gas flux welder is the way to go. a friend of mine uses a mig welder. then theres tig welding. from what ive read tig seems to be a good thing.

any advice? and what the hell is the difference in mig and tig? and it seems that gas flux is nice because it helps the flow of the metal, or something.

anyway, any help or links would be much appreciated.
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sinister_customs
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PostPosted: February 23, 2008, 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

what up biff? the tig is alot harder for beginers, there is alot more going on. I had similiar questions about a year or so ago as you do now, i could not weld for s*** and didn't know enough to jump into it. My friend owns a welding shop, as well as make frames for race cars so i went to him for advice. After talking with him i decided the MIG was the way to go, its a good way to start, and after you get pretty good with it your welds come out pretty uniform. I went for the Comercial Grade Lincoln 110volt. You definatly should buy a comercial grade machine from what alot of people tell me, the big decision on my part was 110volt or 220? I opted for the 110volt because you can use it almost anywhere. at first i was a pretty sloppy welder, but as time goes on i am getting better. Do your research don't just jump into it, i did mine and spent the $800 and got a machine i knew was going to get the job done. lots of 110 welders are not good for more than sheet metal. the one i got goes up to 1/4 inch steel if i preheat with a mapgas torch. But it has done my entire frame on my xs so far with no problems, in fact it can blow holes right through my frame, i have proven that, not proud but just saying. If you have any questions further feel free to ask. In fact i am off to use mine now to build some more of my bike. later!
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TheDude
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PostPosted: February 23, 2008, 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

Biff, I don’t know a whole lot about XS650s yet, but I do know a bit about welding. You are facing the same dilemma as so many other motorcycle fabers have faced in the past (MIG vs TIG). The Miller web site has a great article on the subject

www.millerwelds.com/ed...les70.html

By the way, buy a Miller if you can afford it. Every shop I have worked in has had nothing but Miller. The fantastic products and tech support more than make up for the cost over the competitors (sometimes they don’t even cost more).

IMHO, it comes down to this. If you are only welding thicker gage steel, you want something easy to learn, and you want something inexpensive, than MIG (GMAW) is the way to go. Flux core is cheeper and you don’t need to clean the metal as well because the flux floats off the impurities. Gas shielded creates better, cleaner welds, but you really got to clean the metal first (instead of afterwards with flux core) .

I was facing the same dilemma about ten years ago. I considered the two processes and decided on TIG (GTAW). I wanted to weld very thin steel (bicycle frames .035” wall) and aluminum. I purchased a Miller Syncrowave 180 for $1600 and a $50 welding book. I was making good looking welds within a couple of days with no training. People say TIG is hard to learn because you have to operate the torch with one hand, the filler rod in the other, and the amperage vie a foot peddle (it’s like rubbing your tummy and patting your head at the same time). With a little practice however, it really isn’t that bad.
GTAW can weld more different types of metal than any other arc process, and because of the precise control, you can weld very thin material to very thick (a razor blade to an engine block). Try that with a MIG.
TIG also produces the best looking welds.
The down side of TIG is that, aside from the cost of the equipment, it is slow and you really have to get the metal clean (sand it and wipe with acetone). But if your are not doing production, who cares?
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BiffTirkle
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PostPosted: February 23, 2008, 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

i am an appliance repair technician. i am cfc certified. so that means i repair refrigeration. i use an acetylene torch for soldering copper to copper and copper to steel. that requires holding a torch, and a stick of solder. and i prep the area pretty well, sanding it and applying flux before starting. so i think adding a foot pedal wouldnt be too much more, if i were to start with tig. and i think id go straight to the 240v unit. i dont see myself needing to travel with a welder. but ill still do more research. ill see what i can learn. thanks for the advice guys!
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TheDude
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 12:18 am    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

They always say, if you can gas weld, you can TIG weld. Having done a little gas welding prior, tig came easy. I still can't MIG worth a damed. 240 is defiantly the way to go. You can get 110V portable tigers that will weld thin steel beautifully, but no aluminum.
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BiffTirkle
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

i dont have a garage. i have a basement. and i dont plan on welding in my basement. which means i will have to go outside, i suppose i need to either build a garage. hah! run a 240 weather protected outlet outside, or go with a 110 unit. or i suppose i could just hook up a good venting fan and do all this in my basement anyway.
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kingwj
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 11:06 am    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

TheDude wrote:
They always say, if you can gas weld, you can TIG weld. Having done a little gas welding prior, tig came easy. I still can't MIG worth a damed. 240 is defiantly the way to go. You can get 110V portable tigers that will weld thin steel beautifully, but no aluminum.

You can weld aluminum but you need to modify your unit a bit and you are limited on thickness. A spool gun is another more expensive option.

www.lincolnelectric.co...actmig.asp

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TheDude
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

I don't have a garage either, and I do all my welding in my basement. The beauty of TIG (and I suppose non flux core MIG) is that it produces no fumes. As long as your metal is clean that is. In fact, tig (and non flux core MIG) is best done inside because wind can blow your shielding gas (argon and/or CO2) away.
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sinister_customs
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

I agree with what everyone is saying on here, the TIG is definatly the cleanest most controlable weld, i just found MIG to be a good way to start and i am happy with the Lincoln i have got, i have heard alot of great things as well about Miller, although the local welding shop that my friend owns is only a Lincoln dealer and i knew i would get great suport from them. They also gave me 5 hours of training on my welder i purchased wich was a big help, as far as welding thing material i can dial it right in to do, although the weld does not look as uniform as a TIG, and with a MIG once that trigger is pulled you got to start moving where with a TIG you can go at a slower pace to get the precise look and weld you are going for, but with my MIG i have become a very good metal grinder, I eventually will purchase a TIG and learn that although i would like to master the MIG 100% first, but i have come a long way since when i first purchased it. It really is something "You" have to think about and take everyones opinions and some research into consideration. Don't rush it, think it out, exactly what you need it for or will be needing it for and what your budget is and get the best machine that falls into both of these catagories. Good LucK!
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BiffTirkle
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 3:12 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

then i suppose i will have to choose what my budget will allow. i know lincoln miller and hobart are great companies. but what about the "off brand" units? ive burned up an 8 dollar grinder from harbor freight. but came across a closeout on a nice bosch for 20 bucks. so i'll never buy another cheap power tool from them. but what about the welders? do these affect the quality of the weld being a chinese cheap imported unit?

i guess i really should start with a mig unit. see how i feel about welding ( i know i'll dig it and continue ) but that way i can move up instead of getting a nice unit and end up not using it or worse. not catching on and wasting money.

thanks guys, you've been more helpful than other sites ive looked.

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mario
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

LICOLN from home depot best bang fo your buck i have 3200HD and it works great u can use it with gas or with out ,i bought mine 6 years ago and still works awsome ,go with good machine you will have it for life
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royfisk
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PostPosted: February 24, 2008, 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

henrod.com/
Check this out its my next welder.

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royfisk
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

A little history here I have a 300 amp arc welder with tig capabilities, a 140amp pocket mig welder, a set of victor torches. no plasma. I can weld any way I want too and any materials I want to. If I only could have one source of welding it would be that particular torch. If you buy a mig thats all you can do with it. you still need a torch for cutting and heating tasks, If you go arc or tig unless you add carbon arc thats all you have. To set up shop to handle most any task would cost you thousands of dollars whereas this particular torch will handle most anything you throw at it. dollar for dollar I think its the best buy under a thousand dollars.
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Cooltouch
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 5:29 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

Good advice from folks who have BTDT. I'll just add a couple comments, since I'm more of a recreational welder -- is there such a thing?

I first bought a Victor acetylene rig when I got into welding. I also bought an older edition of the book, Modern Welding. I've since picked up a more recent edition of the book. I would recommend that, before you weld your first bead, you read through the book. It is a very common publication and can be found just about anywhere used books are sold, it seems. It's a big text book, but it reads quickly. You can sit down with it and in a couple hours or less, you'll have absorbed most, if not all, of the main points involved in the craft.

After reading the book, I went to a metal dealer and bought a plate of steel: 2' x 3' and 3/8" thick. I set this atop a B&D workmate style workbench and this became my welding table.

I wanted to practice first, so I went down to Home Depot and bought a few pieces of flat bar stock -- like 1.5" x 1/8" thick. I cut 'em up with my grinder, and practiced welding them back together.

I also practiced brazing. As you might know, a properly brazed joint can be stronger than the steel that's been brazed together. I also bought the book Performance Welding by Richard Finch. He's built race cars and airplane frames all his life, and mentions in his book how he's brazed together many race car frames.

After I got to where I could weld a pretty good bead with gas, I bought a Lincoln Pro Mig 135, which runs off 110VAC. It's a decent unit, wire fed, can do flux core welding with it. It has the capability to weld aluminum if one adds the bottle. I haven't tried welding aluminum with it yet.

Anyway, the Lincoln I bought is a nice little unit. It does what I need. The Pro Mig 135 has been superseded by the Pro Mig 140:

www.mylincolnelectric....px?p=48148


Best,

ichael

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royfisk
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 5:34 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

cooltouch I see you started with a torch, if you were on a budget and could only have one or the other what would you keep?
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Cooltouch
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 5:44 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

Roy,

I gotta admit that if I had only one rig, I'd keep the torch. As you mentioned, you can cut with it, which I can't do with my MIG unit. Also, it is possible to weld aluminum with a torch. Not a lot of people realize this. It was something Finch mentions in his book. He points to all the airframes that were welded before and during WWII and how these were gas welded. Never done it, dunno what all's involved, but I know it's possible.

So, given that I can cut, braze, and weld a variety of metals with a torch, yeah, I'd have to go with it. Only downside to using a torch is consumables (aka gas) can add up pretty quickly.

Best,

ichael

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royfisk
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

the old traditional torches did use alot of fuel but these torches use far less, and another benefit is you dont need to drag a extension cord out to the back 40 for a simple weld or bring the project in from the back 40 for a simple weld. and no high electric bill. they all have pros and cons, just I think alot of people have it in there mind they need a mig machine over anything else. I just like the best bang for the buck.
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BiffTirkle
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 8:07 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

wow, roy, that torch seems pretty nice. and considering they offer a training dvd. i just may have to do this. since i do have torch experience. may not be all that tough getting the hang of.
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 8:15 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

Yea I think its pretty cool and Ive got the rest and I too am going to get one just because it is a nice piece.
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PostPosted: February 25, 2008, 8:47 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

I can't say anything against torch's they are kind of the all in one tool, but i can say i have no regrets with my lincoln 140c i am getting great use of it, its not too heavy to travel with, i go to my dads house all the time with it to help him on his hot rods. Like i said figure your budget, your intent and start from there its you who needs to be happy with the purchase. On your comment about harbor freight air tools i personaly recomend using ingersol rand, they are not too high priced and they out perform any of my Snap On tools i have. I am a tech at a local honda/kawasaki shop and use ingersol every day and never had one fail me yet. Although i hope some of harbor freights equipment is decent cause just this morning i purchased a lathe from them, i will be pissed if its junk! i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed.
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royfisk
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PostPosted: February 26, 2008, 12:31 am    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

yea I have alot of ir tools to and they seem to just keep on working, the ti line develops unbeleiveable torque.Wish you well on the lathe. Id like a smithy myself probably will never happen though.
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PostPosted: February 26, 2008, 12:40 am    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

Hey Sinister,

Which lathe did you buy? I bought a HF 9x20 a few years ago when they had it on sale. Chinese made, of course, but it's a decent little lathe, and can do quite a bit as long as you respect its limitations. There are several Yahoo groups dedicated to the various small lathes, like the 9x20s and 7x's. Some very knowledgeable folks hang out in those groups. Probably worth a visit if you have questions on your lathe's operation.

Best,

ichael

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ashdad
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PostPosted: May 17, 2008, 1:00 am    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

Welders? I'm ashdad been welding since 1976 -my occupation.
If i'm not too late. I would buy Mig for beginners also i would buy name brand. Two reasons availability of parts for the machine , and resale value or trade in value when you upgrade.....later ashdad
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sschering
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PostPosted: August 14, 2008, 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: what type of welder to start with for beginners

I'll throw in my 2 cents as a hobby weldor.

ig is great for a 0 experence newbe weldor.
Only 3 things to worry about.. amps, wire speed and gas flow..
Down side is the common cheep 110v models are useless for anything over 1/8".


As for gas I prefered using a C02/Arong mix gas over straight CO2

If you have the $$ I'd go with TIG..
Plan on wleding Aluminum then get an A/C model with A/C Balance.
The polarity reversal in A/C helps clean the oxidation off the metal.
There si a good discription here
ezinearticles.com/?Tig...id=1167459

Steel only then DC is good..

A/C DC if you might do both.

Air cooled torches are OK but when you start doing A/C tig a watercooled torch is prefered.. A/C runs the torch a bit hotter..

If you still want MIG you can always pick up a Suitcase Wirefeed unit to add on the the TIG. Or just get a 2nd Mig so you don't have to break down the TIG just todo a quick MIG job.

If you wnat to go TIG but $$ is a factor look around for a used unit..
I picked up a Miller TA-252 TIG for $300.. Yeah it was a 1,000lb monster built in 1956 but it was a nice machine. A/C only 10-400 amps and High Frequenty start. It had post flow gas controls too.

You can find these old beasts in AC/DC models too. Just be sure you get a single phase model.. Industrial 3 phase units are common and cheep but 3 phase power is extremly rare in a residential area. Phase convertes don't work well on Welders either.

iller has a great Welding forum, Lots of good guys pro and hobby..
You dont' have to run a miller to get help..
www.millerwelds.com/re...iQodMnYAgQ

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