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xs650 > > Motorcycle Systems > > Engine > > AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)


AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: August 18, 2007, 8:31 pm    Post subject: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

After messing with this issue for 10 years I thought I would post what I found.....This seems to be be best place to set the timing for smoothness, torque and general just running along with the least tension and engine noises........and and riding enjoyment.........1200 rpm....but like everything else overdoing it can darken the plugs........

FOUND THAT .168 THOUSANDS IS A GOOD PLACE TO SCRIBE THE NEW MARK.......DON'T THINK ANY MORE RETARD IS NEEDED...IF ITS TOO MUCH THEN COME BACK TOWARD ADVANCE .........THIS IS A COOL PLACE SO THAT 2200-2600 ISN'T TO ADVANCED TO HOSE UP A COOL CRUISE AND STILL GO GREAT WHEN THE THROTTLE IS CRACKED....MIGHT LOOSE A BIT OF HP AT 168....AS FOR ME I DON'T CARE......I'M CRUISING MOST OF THE TIME............

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Last edited by xsjohn on April 25, 2009, 4:35 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostPosted: August 18, 2007, 9:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing Electronic Ignition

Did you just move the pickup? Did you retard it alittle? Little less power, lot less spark knock? What did it do for you?
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PostPosted: August 18, 2007, 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Timing Electronic Ignition

Just runs along smoother on mine....can't tell any loss of power but I don't weigh but 135 lbs......mine never sparked knocked on the F but the engine sounds better when excellerating retarded a tad.........Seems to run better at steady crusing throttle too......like it likes itself there.....Have to move the pickup slightly counter clockwise...Retarded a tiny bit....the break off things Yamaha put the pickup coil in with can be ground off .... the stems on them are thredded so they can be turned out with pliers and replaced with screws....easy......Moved it a million times and it always ends up back there..........

Good vacuum guage and fish tank control works great.......

John


Last edited by xsjohn on July 17, 2008, 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: April 1, 2008, 3:36 pm    Post subject: AIR BOX ROCKS (and Timing)

I am not much on pods.......the stock air box on the electronic bikes can be made to rock.......adding the third air inlet and removing the walls inside the cover make's it breath much better......possibly even being neutral........real easy to do......

First I tried 5/8 ID tubing and noticed a bit of difference and it didn't chang mixtures....THEN.....got some 1" ID black tubing from lowes and dremeled the oval hole in the air box a bit smaller than the tubing for a forced fit and notched the tubing on the grinder so it says put.....easily.....and no increase in intake noise........noticable increase on the zip everywhere and smoother "free"......but it richened the mixtures.....?

some people are at 4000+ altitude.....this will effect mixtures.....the bike will get richer as you go higher.....although the CV does compensate ....there has to be a limit...

Not sure what would happen with stock carbs ....but with my kit I actually had to turn the mixture screw in 1/2 turn and use the thin spacer ......was runing the medium spacer before the mod.......now the air box is neutral and does not restrict ......must be the reason to shift to the leaner spacer......doesn't make since but that's what happened .....should have got leaner....??? ....only good explaination is not the box is neutral and not effecting carburetion.....


THIS MAY END UP BEING A GOOD MOD FOR REJETTED BIKES AT HIGHER ALTITUDES........be prepared to change mixture settings withthe larger inlet.......

xsjohn


Last edited by xsjohn on April 18, 2008, 9:06 pm; edited 6 times in total
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PostPosted: April 8, 2008, 4:43 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING)

Tested the extra air inlets and they work great with the extra inlet shown above.....and no stinking noise either.....here is how I build my filters......get the original filter off and build your own........even towel will work...andwas looling at one of those cheap walmart blankets for some decent filter material too...I used some thin insultion from some old Serwin-Vega speakers but there is probably endless stuff out there that would work .....and it's free....just cut it a tad wider and an inch longer and glue it where it overlaps on the end only....not the sides......pods are noisy ....expensive and they can rain on the parade........and the little pods will hose everything up......

What ever you do don't open the breather hole on the back of the head .....it is at .220 thou.....I opened it to .250 and now I have to close it......will darken plugs.......

I use the 1" and like it............................

xsjohn


Last edited by xsjohn on May 19, 2008, 3:20 am; edited 4 times in total
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PostPosted: April 16, 2008, 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING)

Thought I would come up with a simple way to check crankcase pressure after all the discussion on the subject...had an old valve cap to drill out......this was also with the newer 80-84 stock breather which was supposidly so restrictive...the single vent hole is only 220 thou...found virtually no pressure at idol and only 2 lbs at high rpm.....don't plan on messing with mine......

When I enlarged the vent hole on mine I just noticed the plugs getting darker (using the stock air box) and low speed throttle cruising getting crappier......so I put it back...........

Looks to me like as the pistons go up and down so fast that the pressure is neutralized.....????

ight also be a good way to check for excessive blow by if it was checked after a good rebuild when broken in .....then after 20 thou to see if the pressure increased.....????

xsjohn
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PostPosted: April 16, 2008, 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Interesting John; you're always coming up with new ways to check out these bikes. Idea
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PostPosted: April 16, 2008, 11:14 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Makes me think that opening the restrictor to much then the air would go out and then be drawn in creating more pressure problems instead of neutralizing itself...and then maybe it neutralizes itself that way too....which i'm sure it does...........maybe I could make a cow milker out of this thing...


......xsjohn


Last edited by xsjohn on April 17, 2008, 10:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: April 17, 2008, 9:09 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

The pressure in the head isn't caused by piston movement (unless you have some major leaking somewhere) it is caused by the oil heating up a expanding - fumes expanding out like a tea kettle.

The breather hole in the head is a very simplified PVC system like a car has - only in a cars system there is an in and an out and one end goes to a hard vacum in the manifold (where the piston sucking does have an effect)

On these the breather hole goes to the airbox where the fumes are passively gathered and re-burned with the gas mix - rather than released into the air.

Serves 2 purposes - 1) prevents buildup of pressure inside engine case
2) new models - instead of oil fumes released into air - they are burned.

AND when you shut the bike off and it cools - I'll be dollars to donuts that air travels IN through the breather hole as the oil cools and creates a vacum in the engine case.

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PostPosted: April 17, 2008, 11:04 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

There is a positive and negitive pressure as the pistons go up and down together....being pretty much canceled by the repidity as I found....and gases are formed by the heat along with some blowby increases the pressure......and the pressure would be the same in the head area as is in the crancase..........and with the stock airbox there is a slight vacuum because of the vent being placed right on the intake of the carb......and it is possible that more heat would be built up in the engine if not for the vacuum removing it from the crancase....but then again the heat is reintroduced into the intake........another catch 22 for sure......

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PostPosted: April 17, 2008, 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Ok JOhn - you are sayng the pressure comes from the lower crankcase - and is transfered into the upper head through the oil passages???

I would agree that the motion of the pistons would cancel out any creation of pressure -

I thought you were saying that the cylinder compression side pressure (Upper) was somehow being transferred into the upper head obove the valves in the cam area - which would be impossible - unless you had some serious leaking - but then you would be blowing blue smoke.

I think I get what you are saying - you know us northerners have a hard time with those suthern accents.....

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Last edited by jimdi on April 17, 2008, 12:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: April 17, 2008, 12:02 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Jim....the area above the combustion chambers share common real estate with the lower crankcase and transmission via the slot between the cylinders where the chain goes........all the same in there.....and none of this discussions has any thing to do with the actual combusion chambers except for a bit of blowby.......

And maybe this discussion has stayed afloat long enough for some people to make decisions on sticking with the the stock air box or using pods.......not a hard choice for me anyway.......

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PostPosted: April 17, 2008, 1:13 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

yes - on the airbox subject -

what happens if you just pull the cover off all together?

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PostPosted: April 17, 2008, 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

You would pick up more intake noise and most likely lean it a bit more.......think from looking at the box they built in some noise dampening to make these things a bit more pleasurable to ride.....I am a nut I guess but I wish these things made no sound at all and no vibes either....like a glider.....just the wind whistling by........such dreams are for electric motorcycles only......which are coming......

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PostPosted: April 18, 2008, 8:28 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Jim.....in reference to taking the cover off the air box......one of my good customers in Idaho was experiencing some stumbling at higher rpms at 4500 foot elevation there in Idaho before and after the kit install.....with the stock air box...he took the covers off and now no stumbling......

xsjohn


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PostPosted: April 18, 2008, 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

john try a coldwing, I had one so quite you could here the pebbles flick off the fenders, feel asleep on the dam thing one nite, went off into a cowfield good thing to it woke me up before going down. Got rid of it too dangerous. but sounds like right up your alley for shine hauling.
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PostPosted: April 19, 2008, 10:04 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

John - so what is the final verdict on the air box mod? does it lean out the mixture or does it richen it up? I notice on my baffle wall (on my air box cover) there are dirt stains at the mouth of the air tubes - which tells me they are performing some sort of primary filtering action - perhaps a place for water droplets to condense when wet air gets sucked in. Not sure if we should be cutting it away...?
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PostPosted: April 19, 2008, 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Oh yeh - we finally hit the 70's today !!! I can tell myh mixuture which was perfect for the 50-60 range is a little too rich now that warmer weather hit. I will try the mixture screw - may have to drop the idle jet down to stock....
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PostPosted: April 19, 2008, 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

Nah.....leave the idol jet alone...just turn it in a bit...when I send out these kits I include 3 different shims........with these guys with pods and pipes they need the richer shims because their engines breath so much better.....with the mufflers things change a bit.......was running the medium one in mine until I modified the air box.......then I switched to the thin shim and all is well....and I turned the mixture screws in about a half a turn....and I am running a 46 custom pilot and it works fine which is bigger than your 45.......and no shim is a bit lean for my tastes.....when I sent you the kit to test I probably only sent one shim....the medium......will send out the thin shim.....and then turn the mixture screw in a bit and go.......they do richen up a bit in hot weather but that will help them stay cooler......was 85 here yesterday and the plugs looked good....

Something else I found out messing with these things so much......you put a new set of plugs in and everything seems fine......after a hundred miles or so when they break in they get darker.......all this is a bit of a practice in brinkmanship ....too much fuel and they darken too much....not enough fuel and they stay real clean but the performance is not there......have to find a happy medium......and with all the different mods and altitudes all this can get interesting...to say the least.....

I need to change the names of these shims before everyone gets confused including me......like.... (light ....medium and heavy)......????...may need a beer and think about this one...

And in the winter you can run a bit richer mixtures because the air is denser......and in the summer the plugs burn hotter to relieve the richer mixture.......trick being getting all that right so it works good in both seasons........and it should......

xsjohn


Last edited by xsjohn on April 20, 2008, 6:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: April 19, 2008, 8:25 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

pulled the plugs today - they looked acceptable. did the air box mod.
3/4 hole plus heater hose for a 3rd hole (Just like my old lady!)

OWE! Trimmed the baffles down a little differently than you did. Rather than cut them all the way down I trimmed the corners down at 45 degrees.

Will give it a test ride tomorrow if the weather holds

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PostPosted: April 20, 2008, 6:32 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

1st run with the air box mods - I took the idle mix down (lean) about 1/4 turn. It is slightly louder - seemed real spunky - this mod and the needles give it alot of get up and go.

I think the mix is about right - choke speads up the idle like it should - and as the engine warms (over a couple of blocks in 70 degrees) the idle climbs (no choke) from 1100 to 1400 then levels off.

ight need som slight tweaking over the next few days.

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PostPosted: April 20, 2008, 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

If you think it's not pulling harder check this out..........One of the transmission cogs on one of the pinions....no fancy speed shifting either........today....back down again for no good reason............

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PostPosted: April 20, 2008, 8:11 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

"back down again for no good reason"

boy you'll do anything to avoid that moped racer won't you?

dang john that's no fun pulling the engine and splitting the cases, oh well here's your chance to put in mikes 5th gear

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PostPosted: April 20, 2008, 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: AIR BOX ROCKS (and TIMING) (and Crankcase Pressure)

jayel......Looks like it's 5th gear too........never have done just the tranny...always just had the whole thing apart.....guess I can just lift the bottom and leave the rest alone.....256-17251-04-00 5th geer wheel........is it trying to tell me something.....these are more than voices this time........

The thing makes bad noises even when it's not going and with the clutch pulled........maybe that gear piece is my huckelbury......but the clutch shaft I think spins allthe time even when the clutch is disengaged....would you think....causing racket even when not in motion....?

PUSH ROD MOD for hopefully better clutch...........
Really hoping the dimpled rods is the fix for everyones clutch...can't hurt anything if not....sure fixed mine and I was tickled that it was that easy....be sure to spin them in a drill and use the pointed dremmel ...both parts too...dimples have to be symmetrical......mine were a bit wider that the ones RG showed....I should have photographed them..........center of the dimple should be just ever so slightly deeper than the ball circumference ....so the ball can't move sideways once pressure is put on it...forcing the rod to automatically center without any wobble......slick.........

Here is a rendition of how I did mine......rods aren't allowed to move sideways or wobble as soon as pressure is put on the clutch lever.....

xsjohn


Last edited by xsjohn on January 28, 2009, 11:33 am; edited 2 times in total
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