Now the XS wont start.

Srinath · Posted: November 24, 2009, 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

xsjohn wrote:

Don't know about rephase....have never done that due to the expense...I have balanced one crank and it was a waste of 400 bucks as far as I am concerned.....but slightly lowering the compressions eliminated 90 percent of that on mine..........nobody wants to talk about a bit less power though...didn't loose enough on mine to even be concerned and the positives are that it runs like an engine should.....Mine will never be any other way now that I have experienced it..........very smooth......I ride too much to not have that.........

xsjohn

I thought it could be fixed with a rephase, cos 90 degree twins have not had this problem. 2 SV's, a 650 and a 1000 that I have owned so far have been relatively smooth tachs.
More interestingly, neither have the 18+ 180 degree twins I have owned. Even my GR was smooth but leaked oil @ the base gasket.

75 degree twins (virago 1100) I have had it happen on ocassion, But goes sway after revving and soon after it gets nice and warm. Maybe its a cable snag issue on it.
The previous xs I had I dont remember but it may have been more rough, cos this bike I have now weird as it feels is not nearly as rough as that one.

I'll post back when I get the tach back on it.
Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn · Posted: November 24, 2009, 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Well I fixed mine for nothing....rephase would be many hundreds.....maybe someone that has done that could chime in ......if you can get a straight answer from them.............just depends on what you want......something that goes zoom for a short time or one that is less cranky that will run a lot longer....didn't even have to adjust my cam chain this year.......it already has 50 thousand on it and I wore out a rear tire this summer.......as I do every year..........

Srinath · Posted: November 24, 2009, 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Now I kinda know what you did. I am just wondering why it fixed it. Lower compression OK so its pushing less load on the compression stroke.
I still think some other reason has to be at play. Maybe its getting less power and hence the piston is getting less violently tossed downward. Maybe that cumulative effect will be enough.
I'll get mine going better and see.
Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn · Posted: November 24, 2009, 4:13 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

More than one of these has been done with the same results......And I am a factory trained yamaha mechanic.........well back then anyway......I have built roadrace engines for guys at datona and trials engines and everything in between.....what I am talking about here is in between.....all depends on what you want..........and how long you want it to last and how smooth it will run...Yamaha did puff these up a but for the guys with the fat wife..... Laughing

...there is a bunch of them I'm afraid..... Shocked

....I still pull 18/29 perfectly......as a matter of fact better.....no ratcheting.......tack needle is dead still........

xsjohn

Srinath · Posted: November 24, 2009, 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

xsjohn wrote:

Well I fixed mine for nothing....rephase would be many hundreds.....maybe someone that has done that could chime in ......if you can get a straight answer from them.............just depends on what you want......something that goes zoom for a short time or one that is less cranky that will run a lot longer....didn't even have to adjust my cam chain this year.......it already has 50 thousand on it and I wore out a rear tire this summer.......as I do every year..........

Oh I should've added in my previous post ...

I have no trouble understanding the rephase fans.

Its like americans trying to understand the game of cricket. They dont understand it because they dont want to understand it. I'd start explaining it to one who is complaining that they cant understand it and promptly they come out with all the cool lines from simpsons and family guy. Right there I know they're not interested in understanding it.

One time I had to explain it to a guy who was trying to impress a jamaican girl. In a 5 minute walk from the parking lot to his office, I explained it and he knew what it was about and after that we discuss it regularly.

I'd just leave it there, its simple why the 270 works, what makes a 277 better/worse/easier, and what else can solve what problem and create what others. I am not cracking open a running motor but if it were to die, not only will I think about your dimples and lower compression mod, I would also consider a 277 (and not a 270)

BTW your dimples - there is a better way to acheive that same effect which costs somethign like 20-30 bucks (not free) but Its a lot cleaner than dimpling the skirts. Coat the skirts with a moly teflon coating, and for good measure coat the tops with a heat reflective ceramic coating. A place in greensboro (or mooresville has a few) does it.

H.M. Elliot in mooresville, I have had some stuff done and am taking the GR motor to them in a bit. They can do heads, valve faces and stems and everything else too. The idea is simple, if it faces the combustion, reflect heat and if its running against other surface, take in oil and anti gall.
Pistons may be 25-30 for the 2, a head when apart prolly is 50 for a 2 valve.
Not free, but will make more power, run lower temp and wear slower.

Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn · Posted: November 24, 2009, 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Dimpling cost me nothing......lowering the compression cost me nothing...and will save me a bunch...and all regular parts........still on stock pistons at 75.5K.......and no engine noises what so ever.......valve tip oilers save the valve tips too and make them run quiet at .004 thou........

Srinath · Posted: November 24, 2009, 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

xsjohn wrote:

Dimpling cost me nothing......lowering the compression cost me nothing...and will save me a bunch...and all regular parts........still on stock pistons at 75.5K.......and no engine noises what so ever.......valve tip oilers save the valve tips too and make them run quiet at .004 thou........

I know that john. Yes I would consider doing it myself if I were to split this motor. My thought is, getting that engine out of the frame, yea right there is where I am putting in 2-300 bucks worth of labor.

If I had to get this motor out I'm modding it for skirt oil retention either with dimples or with a oleophilic coating, and lower compression maybe, valve tip oiler definitely. The thing is I'd also consider a over bore especially with the large fin set from mikesxs, and a 277 rephase.
A 277 is actually not that expensive if you dont start replacing everything on the way in. Its a pull apart and press in of the crank. 270 is much more $.
Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn · Posted: November 24, 2009, 5:04 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Well its just the head for 8-1 and moving the cam........rephase is all the way....including replacing the cam...........and the more radical cams can sound like a can full of marbles..........that will be fun to listen too.......don't forget a different ignition...........add all that up........

And the oilers.............if you look at the head there is a dam there to prevent oil from being slung back.............bet this could be sliced (groved) or removed..........with the one way valves on the breather the extra oil back there shouldn't be a problem..........

xsjohn

Srinath · Posted: November 24, 2009, 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Oh yea cam shaft rephase - I forgot that. Any case, if I get that motor out, I'd ever even consider that. I wont be getting rid of anything of any significance.

Since I am yet to pop a XS head cover off, I am gonna plead ignorance on the oil baffles etc.

I am into longevity, and really wont just say lesser performance = longevity.

Better cooling, ease of maintenance, lower stress when running and smoother and cleaner internals all help get rid of friction, heat and other things that rob life and ironically power.

I have not got mucho miles out of a XS yet, and may not ever ... cos I would sell it and move on especially if it stays all stock, but I managed to get 50K out of a GS500 after running it as a commuter in the SFO area for over 7 years and many many crashes etc. One thing I learned is, not all mods for power cost you longevity, some of the power mods actually add to it. Good example is oversized valves along wiht matched springs, seats etc.
The first thing they do just by virtue of being hand machined to tight tolerance is seal and cool better. Then they are made of high quality material unlike the crap suzuki put in their intake valves. Kawi is the worst for that though, suzuki is just not that bad. Yea big $$$ I know.

Then the 3 angle job and proper carburetion help it run and fill and cool the chamber and valves so much better.
The heat reflective coatings, the anti gall skirts etc etc also will take in oil and make less heat.
Lighter pistons and balancing the crank with that also makes less heat.

Yea yea it all costs $ ... fine I get it. But like I said, I pull that motor, I'd build a forever motor that is also fun to ride. OK a lot of fun to ride.
I'd also powdercoat the frame, mod it for a single shock and a fit a flat track style tail with the KL600 tail I got lying round.

If I pull the motor I would count me as out 300 bucks. I'd happily spend 5-600 to build the XS of my dreams.
If it runs, it will stay as is, maybe get a brat style seat and run as a stock bike till someone forks the $ for it and off it goes.

BTW I know one guy who's itching to buy it, and give it back to me to turn it into a cafe racer. Lets see if itch turns into $ any time in the next 3-4 months.

Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn · Posted: November 24, 2009, 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Well you make it sound like what I did as a cop out to spending money....you are wrong on that one...........get yours all built and bring it by and we will compare.........Mocksville isn't far up the road......and yours will be pretty much new and mine should have over 85 thousand by then...........

When I had mine inspected this year on the new computerized system ....the guy put in 75 thousand and the computer kept spittng it out saying the miles were too low for year of vehicle...... and it looks like soon we will be paying for every mile we ride.........already a pilot study program here in NC on that subject...........

xsjohn

Srinath · Posted: November 24, 2009, 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

No xsjohn I wasn't implying that at all.
All I was saying is, increasing longevity doesn't always come at the expense of performance.
Yea I'll come by sometime, though may not be on an xs, I dont ride, I only commute. Too long a ride to mocksville and if I am making that run, the sv1K will be my choice followed by virago 1100. Then maybe the maxim X. XS gonna be fixed back as stock and sold ...
Cool.
Srinath.

xsjohn · Posted: November 24, 2009, 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

Don't pay any attention to me .......nobody else does.... Laughing

come on up anytime.......

As long as a bike lasts just a couple of years is good enough because....

Srinath · Posted: November 25, 2009, 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Now the XS wont start.

No I dont think it would last just a few years ... as it sits I should get many many years out of it. I am a wimp, I dont spend any real time over 5-6K and I dont lug it. I will nurse a busted bike for years and years ... my 89 GS was so rich (I didn't know that at that time though) cos it has 42.5 pilots in it cos the PO put 42.5 in place of the 40 that is corrent or the 37.5 the factory put in it ... cos the thign says starter jet - 42.5 in the book. It would stall under 3K at take off, and plugs were burning black ... but I would without fail take off just right and never had a problem in years. Then I figured out how to jet it, jetted it right and ran it till 48K. It would use a qt of oil in 300 miles but never died from it. I'll run it forever if I dont sell it before that.

If I rebuild it, it will be stress free ... If I over bore it, it will have the huge mikexs finned head. The crank will get rephased to a 277 and it will prolly run stock or even lower compression. I'll tune it with an O2 sensor and again not exceed 5-6K mush at all.

BTW why do you thing a 277 rephase will be $$$ ...

Here is what I count as $ for just rephase. Labor not counted (cos you pulled and dimple the skirts and space up the block and still consider it free ...)

I'll pull and separate and get the crank out. So far, free.
Then I'll pull the crank apart - I have people who can do this, but cost $. Rotate it 83 degrees, press it back in, weld it back in. Under 100, likely under 50.
New bearings - assuming the splitting and mangling of the crank gonna destroy them. I am sure the 6306's I can get for 10 a pop, the RH side one - send me its size, I'll see what I can source, but if Koyo makes it, I'll get it cheap enough (has to be some advantage in living in nacsar country, sure as hell its not ocean front property) ... Lets call it 50.

Then here it is, cam lobe re orientation. I have made a couple calls to people I know since yesterday. So, I have heard of people who will do something called a friction weld to a cam shaft. What is it ... no clue. I also have heard people say, he'd modify a car cam cos it has ball bearing ends. Cost ... 50 or so for a friction weld. More or less for cobbling a car cam ... in fact with a friction weld, I can add a little lift for a a little more $.

So 200-150 or less for the rephase part ... bump in cam = small gain in mid range performance.

OK the rest, larger cyl and pistons, head work etc ... quickly adds up ... But then its technically not a rephase at that point, but for nearly stock with rephase it dont look like its gonna add more than $200. time, labor and headache not included.

Cool.
Srinath.

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