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xs650 > > After Market Products > > Pamco - Electronic Ignitions > > IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 22, 2009, 4:37 pm Post subject: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Welcome to the club! Here are a couple of important installation tips for the 17-6803 coil that comes with Mikexs kit.
There have been a few coil failures due to overheating because the coil was not mounted properly. Mounting the coil firmly to the cross bar provides a heat sink to reduce the temperature of the coil.
When the coil fails, it shorts out and takes the PAMCO with it, so it's important to take the time for these mounting steps.
It's important that the coil be firmly mounted on the cross bar using the ground wire clamps. I have recently discovered as well that the plastic covering on the ends of the coil mounting ears has to be removed to provide optimum heat conduction.
Go to Home Depot and buy 2 Ground Clamps (1/2 - 3/4 - 1") #051411160104 @ $1.46 ea.
Another basic improvement would be to install a 10 Amp inline fuse to the coil so if it does short out, it will not take the PAMCO with it. '80 to '83 models already have such a fuse.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple
Last edited by pamcopete on May 22, 2009, 9:27 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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Joseph Full Member
Joined: May 22, 2007 Posts: 767 Location: NY
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Posted: May 22, 2009, 4:46 pm Post subject: Re: Mounting Mikes 17-6803 Coil |
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the links aren't working, do you mean the ground clamps that ground services to the pipe by the water meeter?
_________________ Joeymountain
1980sg |
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 22, 2009, 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Mounting Mikes 17-6803 Coil |
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joseph
Sorry...fixed the links. Yes, the clamps that are used to connect the ground wire in a house to a water pipe.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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Retiredgentleman 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Mar 03, 2007 Posts: 2258 Location: Calgary, Alberta 1978 XS650 SE
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Posted: May 22, 2009, 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Mounting Mikes 17-6803 Coil |
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Yamaha started using 4 fuses ( 10 amp for ignition) with the 78SE model. I've mentioned in several posts, that anyone with the 1 fuse wiring harness, should add 3 more fuses. Makes for less chance of a wiring harness fire, and also lends itself to easier trouble shooting, if an electrical problem should come up.
Last edited by Retiredgentleman on May 23, 2009, 2:39 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 22, 2009, 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Mounting Mikes 17-6803 Coil |
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Additional coil mounting cautions:
DO NOT mount the coil on the riser right behind the engine below the carbs. I know that a few of you have mounted the coil this way, but it results in the hot air from the engine heating up the coil.
These coil mounting tips are not just for the 17-6803 coil. Yamaha in there wisdom mounted the coils on the cross bar, slightly ahead of the engine so the air flow from riding will "push back" the hot air from the engine and cool off the coil(s). So it should be with any coil you install with the PAMCO system. These coils, especially the high performance coils, will overheat if they are not mounted firmly to the cross bar with the air passing over them to keep them cool.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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bluebikerblan Full Member
Joined: Apr 18, 2007 Posts: 336 Location: Brigham City, Utah
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 7:53 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Thanks Pete.....I appreciate the way you stay tuned and stand behind your products and ideas! Very informative and helpful stuff. Personally, I had'nt given much thought or concern for the cooling coils need. Blue
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jimmythetrucker Full Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 8:05 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Pete -- Would Mike's green monster coil mount the same way as the one in the pic, or does it need a different setup?
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 9:45 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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jimmythetrucker
Mounting the "Green Monster" depends on whether you have a '72 to '79 or a '80 to 83.
Here is a suggested method for the '72 to '79:
I used ground wire clamps
Mounting in a '80 to '83 is a lot easier, except that you have to use standoffs and two washers to get the spacing just right or the coil will rub against the tank. It is absolutely esssential the the plug wires clear the tank due to the high voltage output of the coil (75Kv)
Here is a top view of the coil, and you can see that the standoffs center the coil in the frame with equal clearance on either side for the tank. You also have to relocate the turn signal flasher up into that little cubby hole in the front and remove the canceller.
These two mounting methods will put the coil in the stock location for cooler running and some air flow when the bike is under way.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple
Last edited by pamcopete on May 28, 2009, 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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IAmGrowler Full Member
Joined: May 04, 2009 Posts: 97 Location: Seattle, WA
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 10:32 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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pamcopete wrote: |
Welcome to the club! Here are a couple of important installation tips for the 17-6803 coil that comes with Mikexs kit.
There have been a few coil failures due to overheating because the coil was not mounted properly. Mounting the coil firmly to the cross bar provides a heat sink to reduce the temperature of the coil.. |
Y'know, I saw the words "heat sink" and that pickled gray thing inside my head that hurts every morning started doing somersaults.
What if you came up with a finned heat sink, kinda like those used in radio controlled cars, that fit the most commonly sold coils at MikesXS, and sold them as a kit with mounting hardware?
The one in the photo is for a 550 size motor, so it would likely be too small, but you get the idea.
Just a thought.
_________________ The Voices In My Head Tell Me Things -- Bad Things. |
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jimmythetrucker Full Member
Joined: Mar 12, 2008 Posts: 1283
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 10:41 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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I got an 81. What if I made me a bracket to mount the green monster up front, behind the forks and in front of the head, like, right above my oil cooler? Do you think that would louse up cooling-air flow to the engine?
About them heat sinks: I thought of that, too, but I figured the cooling fins would probably take up too much room under the tank
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 10:50 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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jimmythetrucker
As long as you bolt the core to something that will absorb some of the heat and you have some air flow, that should be fine. But, it would probably block some of the air to the cylinder heads.
IamGrowler
As far as an external heat sink goes, you still have to bolt the core to something that will act as a heat sink. Also, there is very little room under the tank in the area of the stock coil mounting brackets, so an external heat sink would not fit. Have a look at the photos above and you can see there is no room.
I ran a series of tests on a variety of coils and they can get as hot a 175 F if they are not bolted to something to dissipate some of the heat.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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pumps 650Rider Supporter
Joined: May 29, 2007 Posts: 1993 Location: Kansas City, Missouri, U.S.A.- 1977 XS650 "D" Standard
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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pamcopete wrote: |
Another basic improvement would be to install a 10 Amp inline fuse to the coil so if it does short out, it will not take the PAMCO with it. '80 to '83 models already have such a fuse. |
Pete , on which wire should the fuse be installed?
So was this ever a problem on the old stock coils installation or did the stock setup also act as a heatsink?
_________________ You don't HAVE to be crazy to run into burning buildings, but it HELPS!
On an XS you won't pass yourself on the road everyday.
My Bikes |
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 23, 2009, 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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pumps,
Install the inline fuse between the red/white wire and the positive coil terminal that also has the red wire going to the PAMCO. You can run an extra length of wire so you can place the fuse under the seat.
Yes, the original coil setup used the mounting brackets as a heat sink, However, the original coils and points setup had a dwell angle of 93 degrees per set of points, which equaites to a 26 % duty cycle so the original coils did not get as hot. The original coils also had a primary resistance of about 4 Ohms.
The dual output coil in the PAMCO setup has a 90 deg dwell angle, but the coil is turned on twice per camshaft revolution, so that is a total of a 180 degree dwell angle, or a 50% duty cycle. Coupled with the fact that the coil has a lower primary resistance, more heat is generated, so it is more important that the coil be heat sinked and exposed to some air flow.
Note: Dwell angle is the number of degrees that the coil is turned on.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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Razar Full Member
Joined: Jul 03, 2008 Posts: 103 Location: North Coast New South Wales Australia
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Posted: May 28, 2009, 3:39 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Hi Pete,
Do you think this mount will be OK. It's aluminium. I'll have to check that I've got the plastic off the coil tabs.
Thanks for all the continuing info.
_________________ There's more than one way to skin a cat. |
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ghostyder Full Member
Joined: Jul 05, 2007 Posts: 181 Location: northern california
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Posted: May 28, 2009, 3:55 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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my kit will be here tuesday, all this talk is spookin me but thanks for the heads up.
_________________ dedicated to the protection of orphans and widders, especially widders. credo quia absurdum. |
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: May 28, 2009, 6:29 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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razar,
Yes, that is a good mounting bracket. It will work better as a heat sink if you strip the plastic off of the ends. You may have to use a washer to reestablish the clearance.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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TeeCat Full Member
Joined: Aug 21, 2007 Posts: 1120 Location: Central Maryland
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Posted: June 8, 2009, 9:01 am Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Pete -
Yesterday, I finally got around to stripping the plastic of the coil's mounting ears, per your bulletin. Took maybe 45 minutes, including removing and reinstalling the coil, and I'm slow. I used a hand-held scroll saw to make clean cuts at the base of the plastic, then peeled it off with a whittling knife. One less thing I have to worry about now.
TC
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Retiredgentleman 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Mar 03, 2007 Posts: 2258 Location: Calgary, Alberta 1978 XS650 SE
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Posted: June 8, 2009, 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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This is another option for ignition coil mounting that I have used for the last couple of years. I moved the horn up about 3 inches so that there is now a clear flow of air cross the coil. When I get back from a long ride, the coil is only warm to touch, so seems to be receiving adequate cooling.
Now we don't get the really hot weather here in Calgary area, so that helps the cooling also.
I'm not recommending this for others, you should follow Pete's recommendations as he knows his ignition best, and has done research.
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: June 8, 2009, 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Well, in addition to the cooling air flow, it's important that the core of the coil is mounted to a metal object, like the clamps (as shown) because this arrangement acts as a heat sink. The coil produces just as much heat at idle as it does at speed.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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raincrow New Member
Joined: Dec 14, 2008 Posts: 6 Location: north carolina
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Posted: July 27, 2009, 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Pamicopete, I've been reading many post over the last month, while continuing to sort out a few issues with my 79 sf. Having cleaned and synced the carbs, adjusted valves, timed with light, and installed your ignition system. I have good start, steady idle, and good throttle response, up and down. However after running for short rides and in the shop, it develops a solid miss on the right side. Seems to be killing that plug. After reading this thread, was wondering if this could be related to the coil or ignition.
Regards, Gary
s
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pamcopete 650Rider Supporter
Joined: Oct 10, 2008 Posts: 875 Location: South Carolina
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Posted: July 27, 2009, 8:26 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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gary,
Well, generally speaking a dual output coil either works or it doesn't. If the coil fails, you would normally lose both cylinders.
The exception to this is if you have a partial short to ground in the high voltage putput windings of the coil that shorts out just one of the outputs. This would be seen by a high resistance from the plug that works to ground, because normally, there is no internal connection to ground from the high voltage winding.
This condition is usually caused by running the engine with one plug wire disconencted. The high voltage finds a path to the connected plug by arcing through the insulation of the windings to ground and the plug that's connected This condition is not just peculiar to the PAMCO, but could happen with any dual output coil setup, including the stock TCI coil.
Where it gets interesting is that the internal short to ground may not apear untill the coil gets hot, so you may not be able to measure it unless you are really quick before the coil cools down.
The other test for this condition is to swap the plug wires and see if the miss moves to the other cylinder. If it does, then it's the coil.
_________________ Ride.Enjoy.Life is simple |
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raincrow New Member
Joined: Dec 14, 2008 Posts: 6 Location: north carolina
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Posted: July 27, 2009, 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: IMPORTANT: Service Bulletin |
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Pamcopete, Thanks for the quick response, will check soon. Thanks Gary
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