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ShockHappens
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Joined: Jul 09, 2008
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 7:38 am    Post subject: oil

Hi there,
New to the site and to 650s, was just wonderin what oil most were using
Thanks
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xs1961
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 8:10 am    Post subject: Re: oil

Ive used Castrol gtx 20/50 in all my XS's ( 30+) since 1977..
In fact I stick GTX in everything !
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jimmythetrucker
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 9:14 am    Post subject: Re: oil

20/50 GTX is the good stuff. You can pay more for fancy stuff that may (as they claim) last longer -- but if you're like me and change every 3,000 miles, you can't do better than GTX.
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xs1961
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 9:17 am    Post subject: Re: oil

..Im even more fussy,I always change bike oil every 1000 miles ! Smile
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KYLEPRESTON
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 9:22 am    Post subject: Re: oil

I also have been using gtx but I think it is by chance when I was in the store I was looking around and pep boys was having a sale.
I do always add lucas oil stabilzer only 20ml but just enough to make start ups easier on all the parts. I use it my 4cyl jeep as well. I have 268k engine and doesn't burn. to me that says it works. cause I use any oil that's around in the jeep. I do always change oil every 3k
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Retiredgentleman
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Location: Calgary, Alberta 1978 XS650 SE

PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

I use Shell Rotella T 15W40 deisel oil. Michael Morse over at 650 Central recommends deisel oil, thats good enough for me.
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jimmythetrucker
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 1:15 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

xs1961 wrote:
..Im even more fussy,I always change bike oil every 1000 miles ! Smile

Back in the 70s and 80s I used to change every 2,000 mi. Then one day I listened to a lecture about motor oil by a chevron engineer. Now I change every 3,000.

I like GTX for my motorcycles, but at the same time I rely on SAE ratings for other applications. I think the SAE people are more honest than advertisers, who (obviously) will make any claim for any motor oil if the manufacturer pays them enough.

A head-turning example: My older brother David (now almost 20 years dead) was an owner operator for many years. The last truck he actually bought was an International with a "Big Cam" 400 Cummins in it. He and his wife teamed together and they put 937,000 miles on that engine in four years. In all of that time, they changed one cylinder head (there are three heads on that engine) and two sets of injectors.

Finally the Cummins sucked an exhaust valve and went clunk. Mechanics at Cummins of Des Moines tore the thing down and compared the numbers on the inserts with numbers on the assembly sheet and were astounded to find that the engine still had the original inserts in it -- that's 937,000 miles on the factory-original bottom end, people.

Folks at Cummins Engine Company were notified. They were not surprised: they were astounded. They asked my brother what kind of oil he was running. He told them: "Chevron RPM Delo 100," which (if you guys don't know it) is straight 30-weight diesel oil. They told him they'd give him the overhaul if he agreed to run 15/40 Rotella T.

And so David did what they asked, but he never really trusted the stuff. And when he sold the truck shortly thereafter, he told his beer buddies that story and said he'd sold out because he couldn't afford Rotella oil. I'd like to say he sold out because he finally got smart -- but that would be a lie. He went on driving for other people until -- within two months of the day he died, he got so sick that he couldn't go truckin' any more. David had more than 4 million miles on him when he passed over.


Last edited by jimmythetrucker on July 10, 2008, 1:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
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TheDude
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

I Thought you couldn't run regular car oil in motorcycles because of the wet clutch (I hear it can make them slip). Michael Morse says that the diesel oil is rated for wet clutches, so that's probably what I will start using.

So far, I have been using Yamalube. It's expensive, but it is made for these engines. The peace of mind is worth a couple extra bucks to me.

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jimmythetrucker
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 1:31 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

TheDude wrote:
I Thought you couldn't run regular car oil in motorcycles because of the wet clutch (I hear it can make them slip). Michael Morse says that the diesel oil is rated for wet clutches, so that's probably what I will start using.

So far, I have been using Yamalube. It's expensive, but it is made for these engines. The peace of mind is worth a couple extra bucks to me.

Duder -- stuff that really makes clutches slip especially includes oil supplements like STP, Wynn's Friction Proofing, Casite Motor Honey, the Lucas goop (whatever they call it), etc. Treatments like Slick 50 are probably the worst.
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Cooltouch
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 3:25 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

Be aware that diesel-rated oil, like Shell Rotella and Chevron Delo, used to be good for older motorcycle engines, but that is not the case any more, as of just a few months ago. This issue probably applies to Castrol GTX as well (which is good oil -- or used to be). I used to run Delo 15-40 in my cars and bikes, but now it looks like I will need to adjust this.

The problem is the EPA has mandated a big reduction in the use of ZDDP because apparently it tends to foul catalytic converters. This shouldn't be a problem with motorcycle specific oil, which is what I use now, specifically Castrol when I can find it. The workaround to using the good old oils like Rotella T and Delo nowadays is to use a ZDDP additive, which will provide your valve train, rings, and bearings with the sort of protection they need.

SF and earlier rated oils have higher ZDDP levels, but are almost impossible to find now.

There was a rather long thread about this back in November on the Yam650 list. Bill Denton, who is the list admin and a chemist to boot, has his own recipe. Here's what he has to say:

===============

FWIW, I've (officially?) made a change to my motor oil homebrew mixture to make up for what has been lost in the transition from SJ to SM (gasoline
engine oils) and CI to CJ (diesel engine oils).

My Old Blend:
1) 3 parts Shell Rotella-T 15W40 conventional
2) 1 part Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 15W50 synthetic

My New Blend:
1) 3 parts Shell Rotella-T 15W40 conventional (or 71% by volume)
2) 1 part Mobil 1 Tri-Synthetic 15W50 synthetic (or 23% by volume)
3) STP Oil Treatment @ 2 oz/quart of total oil capacity (or 6% by volume)

For a 2500cc oil change in the XS, use:

~ 1 qt, 28 oz Rotella-T
~ 19 oz Mobil-1
~ 5 oz of STP Oil Treatment

...or you could make it easy on yourself and just round up the Rotella-T to
2 qts, round the Mobil 1 down to 15 oz and stick with 5 oz of STP. The
additive will boost the total ZDDP levels to reduce wear in flat tappet
engines like our XS650's. ZDDP contains zinc, phosphorus and sulfur, all of which were reduced in SM and CJ oils to reduce catalyst and particulate trap fouling.

=============

Bill is using the STP oil treatment in the blue bottle. The stuff in the red bottle is supposed to be better, but seems to be NLA.

See also this:

www.zddplus.com/

Bill thinks what they have to say is legit, and he's done a lot of research on this subject.

This place has better prices than most on zddplus:

secure.mysuperpageshos...index1.htm

Here also is a letter from Castrol sent to a member of the INOA Nortons list, to which I also subscribe:

=============

Thank you for contacting Castrol North America.

Castrol is aware of articles in enthusiast magazines and web-sites, as
well as after-market parts manufacturer discussions concerning GF-4
engine oils and cam-shaft durability issues in older performance
vehicles. Some consumers suspect the lower level of ZDDP in GF-4 oils
may be causing these failures. Castrol is currently investigating this
issue.

If you wish not to use a GF-4 oil in your 1970 Cutlass, Castrol does
offer the following products that contain Zinc at a level that is higher
than the Zinc level found in oils (API SG) marketed during the "muscle
car" era of time:

* Castrol GTX 20W-50 (SL,SM)
* Castrol GTX Diesel 15W-40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL)
* Castrol GTX High Mileage 20W-50 (SL,SM)
* Castrol HD 30 (SL,SM)
* Castrol HD 40 (SL,SM)
* Castrol Syntec Blend Truck 15W-40 (CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,CF,SL) (Semi-synthetic)
* Castrol Tection Extra 15W-40 (CI4Plus, CI4,CH4,CG4,CF4,SL)
* Castrol Hypuron S 15W-40 (CI4Plus,CH4,CG4,SL)(Semi-synthetic)

Thank you again for your continuing patronage.

Castrol Consumer Relations

===============

I was confused by this letter, since it seems to contradict the EPA mandates. But I was informed by another list member that oils with viscosities of 50w at the upper end are not considered "conventional" anymore. So perhaps Castrol's above products will still be fine. If in doubt, though, add some zddp treatment.


Best,

Michael

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xsjohn
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 4:12 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

Valvoline VR1 20/50 is all I ever use.........lots of zink....better have a good clutch that doesn't slip though.....3 of mikes springs and 3 originals is all I needed.....


xsjohn
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ShockHappens
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

Thanks for all of your input on the oil, i do however have 1 more question, as sence i posted i have looked but cannot find the oil filter, obviously internal but where? i was thinking right side where the round cap that sits flush with the 2 bolts in it, but i cant seem to get that cap off.
bike has been sitting outside for years soooo, anyway am i in the right area, have a manual comming but im inpatiant and want to get working on this thing.
Again thanks for the help
Dave
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raftercliff
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Posts: 58
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PostPosted: July 10, 2008, 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

Yes, that cap is the cover for the oil filter screen.
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xsleo
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Location: Earlville NY

PostPosted: July 13, 2008, 11:58 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

the lighter wieght car oils have an energy saving emblem on them. these oils have a friction modifier in them. this is what gives them an energy saving ability. the heavier oils don't have the modifier. the heavier oils are not really for use in the newer engines where they use the lighter oils. they are for the older engines and have more zinc and phosphorus. the friction modifiers are what cause the clutch to slip. most 20-50 oils are like this. i use the castrol 20-50 for motorcycles or pennzoil 20-50. get them both at wallyworld.
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: July 14, 2008, 12:08 am    Post subject: Re: oil

We have so little ""REAL"" problems that worring about oil is wonderful........example.....think about this.........

4 months ago one of my riding buddies sold his XS650 (77) that I sold him and bought a 2002 VTX1800R Honda with 1200 miles on it....6000 bucks but no warantee...he walked around with his nose in the air from then on....until now...............

The dual intake throttle body fuel injection computer S-the bed and now Honda wants 1600 bucks just to begin with......last time I saw him he wasn't as happy as before......plus it has a second computer to further control the mixture for the Vance and Hines pipes that also S-the bed.....at least that's the way I understand it....who really knows....as the turd whirles .....

xsjohn
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xs1961
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PostPosted: July 14, 2008, 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: oil

Im with you there..Stuff alll those space-age monstrocities,they may look good but as far as Im concerned if they cant be stripped-down & sreviced/rebuilt in my back garden with an assortment of basic tools then theyre not for me..
As for oil, the old XS will run on anything reasonably thick & clean..Theyre very much like the old Davd Brown tractors I spannered when I worked on a farm in the 70's , good solid agricultural engineering , big old bearings everywhere..love 'em...
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: July 14, 2008, 9:29 am    Post subject: Re: oil

Speaking of bearings......watch out for the right side main bearing........I have 4 or 5 of them around here and most have pits.........have to look close.....will bum everything big time ...........xsjohn
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Retiredgentleman
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Location: Calgary, Alberta 1978 XS650 SE

PostPosted: July 14, 2008, 4:42 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

Thanks Cooltouch for the tip on ZDDP reduction in the new CJ and SM classifications. The Shell Rotella T diesel sold here in Cagary now has that CJ classification.....................so I'm returning the 5 litre container I bought. I found that I can buy Castrol GTX Diesel 15W40 and it has the CI classification, which still has the ZDDP in it. I've been using the Castrol Diesel before and it works well for me.
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rsylvstr
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PostPosted: August 9, 2008, 9:07 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

i just bought Castrol GTX 10W40 "Motorcycle oil" for my mother in laws 1981 XS650SH

should i go trade it in for some 20W50?

also, i have a lot of Street Legal Oil Boost, which has A LOT of zinc, should i add it?

and can i run the Chevron "car" oil 10w40 i have?

sorry so many questions, it's been a while for me with bikes...thanks for the patience.
Rob
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5twins
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PostPosted: August 9, 2008, 10:07 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

20-50 is what most use. Some run 15-40 diesel. I tried it but with a 40wt you get more top end noise. I went back to the 20-50.
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xsjohn
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PostPosted: August 9, 2008, 11:47 pm    Post subject: Re: oil

At my friends house today......bike was a bit low on oil.....put in a half a quart of Yamaha Lube........mixed with my Vr1 Racing oil.....couldn't find neutral for anything when stoped......the BEST oil is Valvoline VR1.....may take you a while to figure it out ......but you will eventually.......xsjohn
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xs1961
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PostPosted: August 10, 2008, 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: oil

..I wouldnt put that 10/40 in rsylvstr..As 5twins said - way too thin..She'll rattle like bucket of bolts...
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